NFR: 58,000 ballots missing in Florida

Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by miyawaki, Oct 27, 2004.

  1. Stephen Rice

    Stephen Rice Senior Member

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    Are you kidding me John Kerry a monday morning quarterback? he is the perfect candidate to help solve the problem with the Iraqi war. this is a little lengthy but it's worth printing. who better to fight a war than a person who has had hot lead shooting past his head!

    it's worth noting who really served among the heavyweights in each of
    the major political parties. There are some surprises here. Be sure to
    read to the end where the TV pundits who jabber about military service
    have their military credentials exposed.

    Democrats
    * Richard Gephardt: Air National Guard, 1965-71.
    * David Bonior: Staff Sgt., Air Force 1968-72.
    * Tom Daschle: 1st Lt., Air Force SAC 1969-72.
    * Al Gore: enlisted Aug. 1969; sent to Vietnam Jan. 1971 as an army
    journalist in 20th Engineer Brigade.
    * Bob Kerrey: Lt. j.g. Navy 1966-69; Medal of Honor, Vietnam.
    * Daniel Inouye: Army 1943-'47; Medal of Honor, WWII.
    * John Kerry: Lt., Navy 1966-70; Silver Star, Bronze Star with Combat V

    Purple Hearts.
    * John Edwards: did not serve.
    * Charles Rangel: Staff Sgt., Army 1948-52; Bronze Star, Korea.
    * Max Cleland: Captain, Army 1965-68; Silver Star & Bronze Star,
    Vietnam.
    * Ted Kennedy: Army, 1951-1953.
    * Tom Harkin: Lt., Navy, 1962-67; Naval Reserve, 1968-74.
    * Jack Reed: Army Ranger, 1971-1979; Captain, Army Reserve 1979-91.
    * Fritz Hollings: Army officer in WWII, receiving the Bronze Star and
    seven campaign ribbons.
    * Leonard Boswell: Lt. Col., Army 1956-76; Vietnam, DFCs, Bronze Stars,

    and Soldier's Medal.
    * Pete Peterson: Air Force Captain, POW. Purple Heart, Silver Star and
    Legion of Merit.
    * Mike Thompson: Staff sergeant, 173 rd Airborne, Purple Heart.
    * Bill McBride: Candidate for Fla. Governor. Marine in Vietnam; Bronze
    Star with Combat V.
    * Gray Davis: Army Captain in Vietnam, Bronze Star.
    * Pete Stark: Air Force 1955-57
    * Chuck Robb: Vietnam
    * Howell Heflin: Silver Star
    * George McGovern: Bomber pilot, many missions. Silver Star & DFC
    during WWII.
    * Bill Clinton: Avoided service with student deferments. Entered draft
    but
    received 311.
    * Jimmy Carter: Annapolis grad. Seven years in the Navy.
    * Walter Mondale: Army 1951-1953
    * John Glenn: WWII and Korea; six DFCs and Air Medal with 18 Clusters.
    * Tom Lantos: Said to have served in Hungarian underground in WWII.
    Saved
    by Raoul Wallenberg.
    * Wesley Clark: U.S.Army, 1966-2000, W! est Point, Vietnam, Purple
    Heart,
    Silver Star. Retired 4-star general.
    * John Dingell: WWII vet
    * John Conyers: Army 1950-57, Korea
    * Me - US Navy 7 yrs. petty officer 2nd class, Aircraft Mechanic, Anti-submarine warfare operator,Search and Rescue, and Aircrewman
    Republicans

    * Dennis Hastert: did not serve.
    * Tom Delay: did not serve.
    * House Whiip Roy Blunt: did not serve.
    * Bill Frist: did not serve.
    * Rudy Giuliani: did not serve.
    * George Pataki: did not serve.
    * Mitch McConnell: did not serve.
    * Rick Santorum: did not serve.
    * Trent Lott: did not serve.
    * Dick Cheney: did not serve. Had "other priorities." Several
    deferments,
    the last for wife's pregnancy.
    * John Ashcroft: did not serve. Seven deferments to teach business.
    * Jeb Bush: did not serve.
    * Karl Rove: did not serve.
    * Saxby Chambliss: did not serve. "Bad knee." The man who attacked Max
    Cleland's patriotism.
    * Paul Wolfowitz: did not serve.
    * Vin Weber: did not serve.
    * Richard Perle: did not serve.
    * Douglas Feith: did not serve.
    * Eliot Abrams: did not serve.
    * Richard Shelby: did not serve.
    * Jon Kyl: did not serve.
    * Tim Hutchison: did not serve.
    * Christopher Cox: did not serve.
    * Newt Gingrich: did not serve.
    * Donald Rumsfeld: served in Navy (1954-57) as aviator and flight
    instructor.
    * George W. Bush: six-year Nat'l Guard commitment (in four years);
    questions about his service remain.
    * Ronald Reagan: made war propaganda movies.
    * Gerald Ford: Navy, WWII
    * Phil Gramm: did not serve.
    * John McCain: Silver Star, Bronze Star, Legion of Merit,
    Purple Heart and Distinguished Flying Cross.
    * Bob Dole: Army officer WWII.
    * Chuck Hagel: two Purple Hearts and a Bronze Star, Vietnam.
    * Duke Cunningham: nominated for Medal of Honor, Navy Cross, Silver
    Stars,
    Air Medals, Purple Hearts.
    * Jeff Sessions: Army Reserves, 1973-1986
    * JC Watts: did not serve.
    * Lindsey Graham: National Guard lawyer.
    * G.H.W. Bush: Pilot in WWII. Shot down by the Japanese.
    * TomRidge: Bronze Star for Valor in Vietnam.
    * Antonin Scalia: did not serve.
    * Clarence Thomas: did not serve

    Pundits & Preachers
    * Sean Hannity: did not serve.
    * Rush Limbaugh: did not serve (4-F with a 'pilonidal cyst.')
    * Bill O'Reilly: did not serve.
    * Michael Savage: did not serve.
    * George Will: did not serve.
    * Chris Matthews: did not serve.
    * Paul Gigot: did not serve.
    * Bill Bennett: did not serve.
    * Pat Buchanan: did not serve.
    * Bill Kristol: did not serve.
    * Kenneth Starr: did not serve.
    * Michael Medved: did not serve.

    So interesting which party and people wrap themselves in the American
    flag...
    :eek:
     
  2. miyawaki

    miyawaki Active Member

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    Stephen,

    I was quoting "bugnuts" who replied to my posting.

    Leland.
     
  3. Stephen Rice

    Stephen Rice Senior Member

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    thanks

    thanks for straightening me out on that !
     
  4. Whitey

    Whitey Active Member

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    hmmm......

    Turd sandwich or Giant Douche?? Thats a tuffy... Although a Turd sandwich sounds interesting(and tasty), a giant douche could be aimed at Bin ladens' cave and used to flush him out...... :eek: Gotta Love South Park, damn I missed it!

    YT ;)
     
  5. Scott Whited

    Scott Whited Member

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    i cannot believe so many people can actually defend bush. in the last issue of flyfisherman magazine there was a really interesting article on the bush administration and the environment. we only get one planet. the war in iraq is not an answer to 9/11. if it was this administration would have proven some link by now between iraq and al quaeda. they haven't!!!!! but the man who comes out and say's, " i did it!", is still free. come on people wake up.
     
  6. Scott Whited

    Scott Whited Member

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    the one thing i hope most of us agree on is that we need more choices. voting on the lesser of two evils can get depressing at times.
     
  7. Diehard

    Diehard aka Justin

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    I agree. Especially the people on this site. If you are for the environment at all, you should be against Bush. Him and his administration are trying to get rid of regulations and restrictions that people have fought for years to get into place. We are finally starting to make some headway, and then he comes in and wants to take endangered fish off the list, drill for more oil up in Alaska in protected areas, reduce pollution restrictions for large corporations, the list goes on.
    I am not even going to get into the war issue, but I will say that it is fairly obvious that his reasons he claimed for going to war are bullshit. Do some research and you will find more reasonable explanations.
    I could go on about him, but a lot has already been said.
    I am not trying to offend anyone, but please consider more than just the slander you see or hear on TV before you make up your mind this election.
    Even though this country may be going through some hard times now, we will pull through. This is still the best country in the world, it just needs some work. :beer2:
     
  8. Cactus

    Cactus Dana Miller

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    Let's see Andrew, before YOU ran your mouth, you should have noticed that we were talking about the report that there are 58,000 ballots missing in Broward County in 2004. Broward Co. is a majority Democrat controlled county with the election officials Democrats. The vast majority of unions (all government unions) support Kerry. So maybe YOU should read a little more carefully before spouting off and making a fool of your self.

    As for the election of 2000, you're correct, Katherine Harris did make the election decision. That is what the Secretary of State is elected to do as determined by law!!!
     
  9. Cactus

    Cactus Dana Miller

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    Kent, that idea is as wrong as the old racist belief that blacks were better off as slaves because they couldn't take care of themselves, or the old notion that women just weren't able to understand the complexities involved in order to vote.

    Yes, there are cultural and historical reasons that some countries are currently not democratic, yet the idea that muslims can't form a democracy is plain wrong. Both Turkey and Indonesia are majority muslim nations that are also democracies. Look at Afghanistan! Just three years ago, people were saying that the Afghans could never govern themselves. Yet just this month, they had over 80% voter participation in their first free elections EVER! Many Afghan people risked death in order to vote.

    Will these nations governments look like an American democracy? Probably not, nor should they necessarilly. They need to find a democratic system that works for them. But to say that some people aren't suitable for the democratic process is demeaning to those people.

    How does anyone (other than tyrants and terrorists) lose if people are able to gain self-determination of their own governments? That is a win-win for the entire world.
     
  10. bugnuts

    bugnuts Member

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    Vote for Bush...that way it'll be Arnold v. Hilary in 2008. :D That should provide some comic relief.
     
  11. o mykiss

    o mykiss Active Member

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    Not to rain on your parade, Cactus, but 0% of the women in Afghanistan participated in the recent election. So much for the old "freedom is on the march" saw. To the extent that the concept of democracy includes social equality and respect for the individual, I would not call Afghanistan a democracy by any stretch of the imagination. And it's pretty hard to imagine true democracy can take root anyplace where a culture is completely dominated by a religious system that is entirely antithetical to concepts like social equality and respect for the individual. Just my $0.02.
     
  12. Brent Comer

    Brent Comer Member

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    Consider this

    Here is an interesting article about the civilian casualties in the Iraq war. I can't imagine this is a good way to spread democracy.

    http://www.iht.com/articles/2004/10/28/news/toll.html

    :(

    By the way, I'm new to this list. I appreciate the thoughtful discussion about the upcoming election. I hope I can contribute to the fishing discusssion.
     
  13. Bob Triggs

    Bob Triggs Your Preferred Olympic Peninsula Fly Fishing Guide

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    Welcome Brent! Glad to have you aboard.

    If anybody gives you any crap just let Homer know, he's the bonebreaker here. :clown:

    Areally though, thanks for signing on. Check out all the stuff there is to see on this site; it's pretty extensive. Our search feature holds tons of info on a wide range of subjects from the forum postings. Often a question can be researched there. It will take a long time to explore all this site has to offer.
     
  14. Brian Simonseth

    Brian Simonseth Banned or Parked

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    So, Bob wasn’t you just in FORT LAUDERDALE last week?

    Bonebreaker
     
  15. Bob Martin

    Bob Martin Member

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    On tonight's news, there was a report that over 100,000 Iraqi people have died so far in the war (that's an estimate, it could be more). Most of them died in air strikes. Are we trying to kill them all off in order to cram democracy down their throats?

    Yes, the world is better off without Saddam but look at the human cost to them and us. And Saddam was not even the source of the terrorist attacks against the USA!!! Can anyone honestly suggest that removing Saddam from power, and the attempt to democratize Iraq is worth the enormous cost and agony for so many?

    Ah, hindsight, had we exercised more patience things would have been a lot different. A lot of people would be alive and not dead.

    We need to change our tactics and give a new administration a chance to solve this incredible mess.
     
  16. coonrad

    coonrad New Member

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    I can see that the iraq war is a very contentious issue with many people on this board.

    Therefore I suggest we change the subject to a neutral topic that everyone can agree on: Israel versus the Palestinians?

    coonrad
     
  17. Cactus

    Cactus Dana Miller

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    Where in the world did you get THAT figure from??? According to a variety of sources, 41% of Afghan women (see link) registered to vote (not sure how many voted, although some most certainly did vote) for the presidential election. Although this is not equel to their percentage of the Afghan general population, this is a FAR cry from when they weren't allowed to leave the house unattended. That sounds an awful LOT like freedom to me!


    http://usinfo.state.gov/sa/south_asia/rebuilding_afghanistan/democratic_afghanistan.html

    I hazard to guess that the newly empowered people of Afghanistan would disagree with that assessment STRENUOUSLY!

    America prior to the 1960's did not have social equality and respect for the individual across the board. Are you then saying that America was not a democracy until the Voting Rights Act was enacted in 1965?

    It took Afghanistan three years to get to a level of democratic participation that took the United States 180 years. Sorry to rain on your parade, but any fair minded individual would consider that a tremendous success. :thumb:
     
  18. Cactus

    Cactus Dana Miller

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    And that estimate could be MUCH lower. Even Al Jazerra estimates 37,000; one third of the report you site. And we all know how credible Al Jazerra is!
     
  19. Steve Buckner

    Steve Buckner Mother Nature's Son

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    Cactus, so even if you use the numbers that Al-Jazeera is using, 37,000 dead Iraqis is not going to win the "hearts and minds" of the Iraqi people. If the roles were reversed, and the United States were invaded by Iraq, how would we react?

    Nearly 150 years after the end of slavery, we still have issues in our own country. The rift that has been created as a result of the US invading Iraq for no other reason than oil will last for decades. But then, as Bush calls it, Welcome to the "American Century"...I wonder if us US citizens can travel at will in the new "eastern" province" of the U.S.?

    So, according the the 911 Commision, and the Charles Dulfur report, Iraq did not have WMD's before the war, during the war, or after the War. Both reports also found no link between Iraq and Al-Queda. So despite what G.W. said before the war, there was no iminent threat, there were no WMD's, there are no links...So what justification was there for the U.S. to invade?

    And why was George Bush refusing for months to be involved with the 911 Commision and why did he use executive priviledge to prevent Condoleeza Rice from being questioned? Could it be that there may be something that he's trying to hide?

    Bush ultimately gave in due to public pressure, Rice was interviewed on the condition that no other member of the administration participate and that she only be questioned one time. Bush and Cheney were later questioned on the condition that their would be no transcript, no recording, and that neither of them would ever be held accountable.

    But who could trust the 911 Commision, who could trust the Dulfur report, shouldn't we just throw out those reports and just believe in George Bush, the same man who believes he was called to be president by God? (Said with lot's of sarcasm....)Wait a moment while I vomit...

    As for Afghanistan, Hamid Karzai has been elected president. What a great step forward...or is it? He is seen as a U.S. puppet, and maybe he should be as he was heavily involved with the Carlisle group, another oil hungry company that was anxious to open an oil pipeline out of Afghanistan to Pakistan. So what did Karzai do while "Interim President"? He made sure that the pipeline would proceed and signed the necessary documentation.

    Iraq invaded Kuwait in the early nineties for oil, and were driven out by the U.S.. Now, in 2003, the US has invaded Iraq for oil...so how is the U.S any different from Iraq? Should'nt the US government be liable in the same way that Saddam was responsible for invading Kuwait?

    So, everything is just as many predicted, Bush invaded Iraq for the money he could glean from raping the Iraqis. Haliburton has been awarded the oil contract just as Dick Cheney would have wanted. Hamid Karzai was "elected" president of a middle-eastern, muslim country. The U.S. has succeeded in bringing "Democracy" to the middle east...or has it? Besided the 37,000 dead innocent Iraqis, there are 1,500 dead U.S. soldiers and 10,000 to 15,000 U.S. soldiers that have been wounded, many to live out their lives without limbs. But I'm sure glad to see gas prices drop by 25 cents...said with much sarcasm.

    How many congressmen have children fighting this war on terror? A cause that is so noble? There is a grand total of 1...

    "Let freedom ring"...or is it "Let capitalism ring"...whether they want it or not...give me a break :beathead:
     
  20. Cactus

    Cactus Dana Miller

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    I don't trust the numbers posted by Al Jazerra either. The Iraqi government figures for the past 7 months, the time period of the most intense fighting, is approximately 3600 "civilian" deaths. The numbers break down to 10 men killed for every 1 woman or child killed. Considering that the Iraqi insurgents and terrorists are dressed as civilians, I would guess that the vast majority of the male "civilians" killed were combatants.

    Now, as for how the US would react if we were "invaded" by Iraq, I think most Americans would be somewhat releaved if that "invasion" resulted in the ending of a totalitarian regime that routinely killed over 30,000 Americans every year and did not allow free elections. In a situation such as that, I would be fighting alongside the Iraqis!

    If this war was strictly for "oil", why are we giving all proceeds of Iraqi oil sales back to Iraq instead of releaving our current oil shortage and price increases. If we had only wanted oil from Iraq, we could have simply bought it from them under the table as the United Nations did.

    Not true! The 9-11 Report concluded that there were conections between Iraq and Al Qaeda, as does the Joint Intellegence Committee Report (see page 315). Bill Clinton concluded the same thing as far back as 1998. Iraq has furthermore been recognized as a State sponsor of terrorism clear back to the Carter Administration.

    What the 9-11 and Intellegence Commettee Reports concluded was that there was no connection between Al Qaeda and 9-11. Big difference. Iraq has provided financial support and logistical support for Al Qaeda for years. THAT is justification alone for the invasion. Add in that Saddam was in violation of the cease fire agreement from the 1st Gulf War and was firing at allied aircraft on an almost daily basis, and there was more than enough justification.

    Oh please, enough with your Michael Moore conspiracy theories! Karzai has been accepted by ALL of his opponants in the election. The plans for that oil pipeline were dropped during the Clinton Administration. As for his involvement with the "Carlisle Group" and your other allegations, provide documentation.

    What is it? Are we spending 800 billion dollars as John Kerry claims or are we making money on this deal? :rolleyes:

    What's wrong with capitalism? It has provided the world with the most advanced civilizations that have provided more freedom and wealth for the citizens of capitalist nations than any other system ever tried.

    If you hate capitalism so much, I hear the fishing in Cuba is great! :thumb:
     

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