Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by miyawaki, Oct 27, 2004.
. . . and with that note, I'm leaving to mine for chrome in Idaho.
Cactus, I respect your views but take time to read the article that Brent Comer has posted on this thread. Even if the estimate of Iraqis killed was half that figure, that's still an enormous amount of death and agony to deal out to a nation's people who were not the source of the 9/11 terrorism, and, as it turns out, had no WMD's. Besides that, remember almost 1100 US troops have died as well so far. Are you saying it has all been worth it? Is this the best way to build democratic values in the Middle East? Are you for more of the same?
Leland, you started this politcal discourse, you can't bail now! Wait!
Git while the gittin's good!
Leland, don't look back! Make a good run for it! Hope you strike it rich with that precious metal!
Wow, I'm sure glad I went flishing! :beer1: Had to try out my new canoe trailer, launch went smoothly, so I headed on upstream in the drizzle running late after the last push of the tide, and with my ol' 30#-thrust Minnkota goin' full tilt boogie, I made it to the head of tidewater after the tide had already started draining out of the upper pools. Didn't see any poachers, resource rapers, or politicians. Not even any other fisherpersons.
I was alone on the zipperlip where the tide reaches up into the gorge. I beached my canoe on the gravel bar above the pool where I had caught my first Chum on a fly last fall and tied a #6 flashy green muddler-like streamer, the same fly that fooled 'em last year, onto the 3 feet of 12# test leader blood-knotted to the 10" of 30# coming off my type 6 sinktip. I made a few casts, swinging the fly into the depths of the pool, and then slowly stripping it back along the seam between the fast and slow water. Nothing.
I bit off that fly and tied on a #8 black-and-purple egg-sucking leech, the very same fly that had fooled a chum in another Willapa Bay tributary. Before I could make a cast I noticed some motion in the water in front of me, and that motion materialized into a school of Chum! At least 15 or 20 of 'em! They must have seen me, because they turned and fled back into the pool.
I laid out, swung, and stripped in quite a few casts before one finally took the fly. It was a chromer and she put on a good show, all over the pool and jumping several times. When I had the approx. 8# hen tired out, I reached for my waterproof disposable camera and she managed to get off before I could get a shot. Good enough! I glanced at my watch and noted that it was already 5:30pm. The drizzle had stopped. I worked the pool for another 20 minutes without another take and then buzzed outa there, enjoying the evening cruise back to the boat ramp.
Yep, I like that new canoe trailer! :thumb:
Old Man Jim! I sure hope you went fishing, too! :beer2:
Its not Bushes fault per se but extremists in the Republican Party.
Doesn't anybody remember a week and a half ago 15 thousand absentee registrations were sent in in Florida and none of them were real people!!! and they were ALL registered as REPUBLICANS.
Oh, and the fact is that Kerry has raised Less money than BUSH. About 44 million dollars less. What frustrates me the most about our fellow americans is that they hardly ever look up a fact from a reputable source, like a newspaper. Then maybe Americans will be able to make smarter decisions. Here is a quote..... "That helped both candidates set national fund-raising records, with Bush getting $266 million from individuals compared with Kerry's $222 million" according to the Long Island paper where both canidates were two days ago. Oh and just in case your going to say the Democratic party as a whole raised more than the republican part here is a site with the latest confirmed totals:
And George has not given over ONE BILLION DOLLARS. Who would ever do that?
Get your facts straight please. Investigate some and then vote. :thumb:
Don't mean to get too heated but I get frustrated with stuff like this... :beathead:
1. Does anybody recall that Bush had been in the White House for almost a year when 9-11 happened?
2. Does anybody recall that the 9-11 commission stated that they were problems with Condalezza Rice and here excuses for the Bush administration NOT following up on a FBI report on a iniment attack on the New York area IN AUGUST?
3. Can anybody in America read a newspaper or watch anything other than reality shows to get to anything close to resembling facts?
OK now I am done. Goodnight.
Your funny! The republican party has been hijacked by the Neo-cons, are you familiar with this term?? Ya know, Rumsfeld and crew? The want to take over the world in the name of democracy! sounds good in theory, but their motives are money and greed. BUT, if your so behind these turds, by all means, pick up a gun, go to iraq, have a "blast"!!! :thumb:
YT, off to the ronde! :beer2:
What amazes me......
Did ya ever go to a "professional" ballgame, and notice all the tickets are barcoded, "they" know when the ticket is "punched" and "they" know which gate it was punched at......and you ain't gettin' in with a facsimily.......duh,........ barcodes, computers, instant verification, inventory......and the list goes on....... what a novel idea...brainstorm this one, bureaucrats......"they" have control obviously.
"We the people.......", need "they".....
"They" for President 2008
Maybe this is a good place to stick in something I've been wanting to report but I didn't want to start a new thread.
When I was in France on vacation a few days ago, I had the pleasure of watching all types of weird television. One of the channels I could get was Al Jazerra.
One night while watching it, they showed an Iraqui casualty of the war, something we don't do except from a distance. Come to think of it we don't show American casualties either, except in a flag drapped box. War has to be kept clean for the folks back home.
Anyway this causualty, this guy, was on his back with his arms in place as well as his lower torso and that was pretty much it. There were no entrails, no shoulders and no head. The guts had been gouged out and the shoulders and head were someplace else or had just evaporated.
I could see his boots but I was unsure as to the color of his clothes since they were so drenched in blood. They might have been blue. Maybe he got hit with some sort of heavy artillery, I don't know.
But I gasped. My wife left the room and got sick. Here was war right in my face.
Maybe the Iraqi dead are only 35,000 instead of the 100,000 previously reported.
Maybe Hitler killed "ONLY" 5,000,000 Jews instead of the six million normally reported.
But here was just one man, well, half a man, alone in an alley, not found by his family as yet.
We could never show something like that on our TV. It might end the war.
Bob, the I am a Viet Nam vet. I have a right to talk.
I hope we can all agree that its very good thing to have the freedom to discuss our political view points on a public forum such as this. I know that some find it unsettling. But it allows us to vent and rant and rave a little. And it was all done in a generally civil and considerate tone. We may disagree with one another but it never hurts to hear the other person's views. I'm sure no one changed their positions, but if nothing else, I think it all helps to clarify our own stand on issues. This was freedom of speech at its best. Thanks for getting us started Leland.
Do you know if the guy they showed was an 'insurgent' who died fighting the Iraqi and US forces? Was he a terrorist who crossed the border to join the fight there instead of heading to the US to bomb our friends and family? Was it an Iraqi civilian killed by an insurgent or terrorist for hoping and praying for democracy, freedom, an education for his daughter, etc?
Do you recall how many innocents were killed, raped, tortured each year under Saddam?
Cactus, I disagree that the 911 Commision found any link between Iraq and Al-Queda and Iraq having WMD's. What is your source for this?
A recent poll conducted found that 75% of Bush supporters still believe that there is a connection between Iraq and Al-Queda despite the findings of the 911 Commision. The same report found that approximately 80% of Bush supporters also believe that Iraq had WMD's.
As I stated earlier, both the 911 Commision and the Dulfur report found NO link. Yet somehow, Bush supporters insist that there is a link. The report also went on to say that how much one knows about the situation in Iraq is dependent upon where you get your news from. The poll was not conducted by NPR, but it did find that those who listen to NPR were more educated on Iraq by a large percentage than those who were not.
So how is it possible that Bush supporters are hearing something that doesn't exist? They're hearing it from Fox News and/or from the president, not from the commision that reviewed it.
I've come to believe you define yourself by the quality of your information sources (though I'm thinking of media only indirectly). I believe it was the poet/conservationist Gary Snyder who awakened me to this when I was young and experience-dumb back in college. This is even more important in our age of corporate control. Either way, this war is about the economic interest in the middle east. Our Govt wouldn't give two shits about Iraq if it wasn't for oil. There can be no doubt about this. North Korea not only has nuclear weapons but has threatened to use them against us. The genocides of African despots make Saddam look like a saint. But we have no stake in these places.
So I repeat from my earlier post- stop bitching about things you can't control (one person one vote) and do something that makes an impact. Running biodiesel in your rig completely disenfranchises big oil, the middle east (Saddam, Osama, Saudis, etc), and, its is 90% better for the environment. AND it's grown by USA farmers. There are a few other things you can do as well, but this is one you can do tomorrow. America is about ground up, power by the people, for the people. Our economy, and thus our govt, is responsive to our spending choices. We have power there. Use it! Placing all your hope on an election and these politicians to change your life is a pipe dream. Buck up and get to work making change in YOUR OWN life, the politicians will follow. Driving around in a big truck or SUV or commuting 80 miles/day in your Jetta while bitching about the war in Iraq is the ultimate in hypocrisy (though you can run biodiesel in an diesel Excursion and do more than any hippy or Prius driver is doing to f*ck the terrorists). The mind set that we as citizens bear no responsibility for this global-political situation, that it's simply the result of a bad election... sigh..the total lack of accountability... maybe we are indeed seeing the decline and fall. Nobody but ourselves to blame. If we don't take advantage of the opportunities we have, and continue to look to others to solve problems that are within our own domain, we deserve what we get.
What the 911 Commission concluded was that there was no evidence of a "collabrative relationship" between Iraq and al Qaeda's attacks on America. This is a point that President Bush has also stated many times. However, both Thomas Kean and Lee Hamilton, the chair and co-chair, have stated that there were contacts, i.e. "links", between Iraq and al Qaeda.
Although evil, I doubt that Saddam was stupid enough to have a "photo-op" taken signing a mutual co-opperation pact with Usama bin Laden!
Well then, 75% of Bush supporters agree with the heads of the 911 Commission and the Joint Intellegence Committee Report that there were connections of one type or another!
Along with 100% of the worlds intellegence services, Bill Clinton, Al Gore, John Kerry and John Edwards. Prior to the invasion of Iraq, everyone agreed that Iraq had WMD.
And as my link shows, there was a connection according to the 911 Commission. You say that the report you cite was not done by NPR. Who did the report then? What is YOUR source?
Actually, it's not a matter of Bush supporters "hearing something that doesn't exist", it's a matter of anti-Bush people REFUSING to hear what does exist because they don't want to believe it! The 911 Commission as well as the Joint Intellegence Committee Report both agree that there were connections between Iraq and al Qaeda.
Apparently, all those NPR listeners aren't as educated on Iraq as you assert! :hmmm: Those 75% of ignorant, in-bred Bush supporters are more informed than NPR listeners. Imagine that!
OK, you caught me! I was engaging in a little hyperbole. But Soros has pledged to spend 25 million of his fortune to defeat President Bush.
As for Kerry having more money than Bush, I was including the money spent by 527 groups, the VAST majority of which support Kerry over Bush.
And I have spent many hours investigated the issues. Apparently, I'm even more informed than all those NPR listeners! :thumb:
My ballot is in the mail. Does that make me a hero? I voted! My duty is all done! Now I just sit back and bitch! Some stuff for you guys, still won't change your impact on anything or this meaningless debate, but what the hay:
Your neighbor's political contributions by zip:
Videos of all the Iraq beheadings. This will change or affirm your mind about the horror of these people. (WARNING! After watching one of these several weeks ago I felt sick for days, please proceed with caution, seriously- I didn't know they used steak knives- I thought is was a quick machete deal. It is not. It is a long torture and celebration, and will sicken your soul, proceed with caution):
Biodiesel fact sheet:
Cool fish art:
If we stop talking and being lazy and cheap and fat and complaining and start DOING we can make this country great again. This is a land of opportunity, for real, but if you seek no opportunity, you will get what others dictate to you. Let's go get it!
It puzzles me why you still don't get the fact that there is no connection??? There are no WMD's, never were...We haven't found any labs, we haven't found any evidence after having U.S forces there for 18 months...but if it makes you sleep better to just trust the government, believe away! The CIA has admitted that the intelligence it had was faulty.
here is a link to the program that aired on NPR:
Talk of the Nation, October 21, 2004 · A new study by the Program on International Policy Attitudes (PIPA) shows that a significant number of Bush supporters continue to believe that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction. We speak with PIPA's director.
So, the poll is correct, those Bush supporters refuse to listen to the evidence presented by the 911 Commision or the Charles Dulfur report.
When did people start trusting the government? I thought that faded away after vietnam???
So despite your earlier assumptions about being informed, I'm afraid your still uninformed.
And if taking an hour of your time doesn't work to listen to the link above will take to long, here is the story from PIPA (http://www.pipa.org/OnlineReports/Pres_Election_04/html/new_10_21_04.html)
Bush Supporters Still Believe Iraq Had WMD or Major Program,
Supported al Qaeda
Agree with Kerry Supporters Bush Administration Still Saying This is the Case
Agree US Should Not Have Gone to War if No WMD or Support for al Qaeda
Bush Supporters Misperceive World Public as Not Opposed to Iraq War,
Favoring Bush Reelection
Even after the final report of Charles Duelfer to Congress saying that Iraq did not have a significant WMD program, 72% of Bush supporters continue to believe that Iraq had actual WMD (47%) or a major program for developing them (25%). Fifty-six percent assume that most experts believe Iraq had actual WMD and 57% also assume, incorrectly, that Duelfer concluded Iraq had at least a major WMD program. Kerry supporters hold opposite beliefs on all these points.
Similarly, 75% of Bush supporters continue to believe that Iraq was providing substantial support to al Qaeda, and 63% believe that clear evidence of this support has been found. Sixty percent of Bush supporters assume that this is also the conclusion of most experts, and 55% assume, incorrectly, that this was the conclusion of the 9/11 Commission. Here again, large majorities of Kerry supporters have exactly opposite perceptions.
These are some of the findings of a new study of the differing perceptions of Bush and Kerry supporters, conducted by the Program on International Policy Attitudes and Knowledge Networks, based on polls conducted in September and October.
Steven Kull, director of PIPA, comments, "One of the reasons that Bush supporters have these beliefs is that they perceive the Bush administration confirming them. Interestingly, this is one point on which Bush and Kerry supporters agree." Eighty-two percent of Bush supporters perceive the Bush administration as saying that Iraq had WMD (63%) or that Iraq had a major WMD program (19%). Likewise, 75% say that the Bush administration is saying Iraq was providing substantial support to al Qaeda. Equally large majorities of Kerry supporters hear the Bush administration expressing these views--73% say the Bush administration is saying Iraq had WMD (11% a major program) and 74% that Iraq was substantially supporting al Qaeda.
Steven Kull adds, "Another reason that Bush supporters may hold to these beliefs is that they have not accepted the idea that it does not matter whether Iraq had WMD or supported al Qaeda. Here too they are in agreement with Kerry supporters." Asked whether the US should have gone to war with Iraq if US intelligence had concluded that Iraq was not making WMD or providing support to al Qaeda, 58% of Bush supporters said the US should not have, and 61% assume that in this case the President would not have. Kull continues, "To support the president and to accept that he took the US to war based on mistaken assumptions likely creates substantial cognitive dissonance, and leads Bush supporters to suppress awareness of unsettling information about prewar Iraq."
<< RESUME READING >>
This tendency of Bush supporters to ignore dissonant information extends to other realms as well. Despite an abundance of evidence--including polls conducted by Gallup International in 38 countries, and more recently by a consortium of leading newspapers in 10 major countries--only 31% of Bush supporters recognize that the majority of people in the world oppose the US having gone to war with Iraq. Forty-two percent assume that views are evenly divided, and 26% assume that the majority approves. Among Kerry supporters, 74% assume that the majority of the world is opposed.
Similarly, 57% of Bush supporters assume that the majority of people in the world would favor Bush's reelection; 33% assumed that views are evenly divided and only 9% assumed that Kerry would be preferred. A recent poll by GlobeScan and PIPA of 35 of the major countries around the world found that in 30, a majority or plurality favored Kerry, while in just 3 Bush was favored. On average, Kerry was preferred more than two to one.
Bush supporters also have numerous misperceptions about Bush's international policy positions. Majorities incorrectly assume that Bush supports multilateral approaches to various international issues--the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty (69%), the treaty banning land mines (72%)--and for addressing the problem of global warming: 51% incorrectly assume he favors US participation in the Kyoto treaty. After he denounced the International Criminal Court in the debates, the perception that he favored it dropped from 66%, but still 53% continue to believe that he favors it. An overwhelming 74% incorrectly assumes that he favors including labor and environmental standards in trade agreements. In all these cases, majorities of Bush supporters favor the positions they impute to Bush. Kerry supporters are much more accurate in their perceptions of his positions on these issues.
"The roots of the Bush supporters' resistance to information," according to Steven Kull, "very likely lie in the traumatic experience of 9/11 and equally in the near pitch-perfect leadership that President Bush showed in its immediate wake. This appears to have created a powerful bond between Bush and his supporters--and an idealized image of the President that makes it difficult for his supporters to imagine that he could have made incorrect judgments before the war, that world public opinion could be critical of his policies or that the President could hold foreign policy positions that are at odds with his supporters."
The polls were conducted October 12-18 and September 3-7 and 8-12 with samples of 968, 798 and 959 respondents, respectively. Margins of error were 3.2 to 4% in the first and third surveys and 3.5% on September 3-7. The poll was fielded by Knowledge Networks using its nationwide panel, which is randomly selected from the entire adult population and subsequently provided internet access. For more information about this methodology, go to www.knowledgenetworks.com/ganp.
Funding for this research was provided by the Rockefeller Brothers Fund.
For more information on the PIPA poll see:
Report of Findings
What puzzles me is none of you see your own connection. Sad. As Dr Phil (you must know him, as you seem to be media whores) says- time to get real! Time to walk the talk. Who are you fighting with this shit? Does it matter? Fighting about details of the symptoms and refusing to take accountability for the cause? Shut The f*ck up, stop debating shit you have no control over and do something about it. What have you done today? Arguing details of some reports? You guys are suckers. Create your own reality, like all great Americans have done, and stop waiting for others to do for you.
What connection are you referring to?