(NFR) Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquatic C...

Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by ChrisC, Mar 24, 2004.

  1. Kalm

    Kalm Member

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    Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquatic C...

    I am totally for Bush's "Healthy Child initiative", and "No Forest Left Benind Initiative". Oh, wait, did I get the words mixed up?
     
  2. Andy

    Andy Workin in a sweet mullet

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    Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquat...

    yeah cheech and chong were just trying to copy Henry Ford. I could go on and on about DuPont and their lobbying to ban hemp in the 30s, but thats old news and it never goes anywhere.
    Dupont owned the companies that made newspaper (the actual paper) for almost all newspapers in America back in the 30s. Someone came along (cant remember names...:smokin ) but they invented a pulp press that made hemp 95% efficient in making paper, way more efficient than regular wood pulp newspaper. DuPont was afraid of losing their grip on the market, so they pulled their weight and began their "demonization" of hemp.
    Have you ever seen "Reefer Madness"? They were showing that movie in congress as late as the Regan era rationalize their argument. What a crock of pooo...

    Andy - the would have majored in hemp if I could have, lord knows I did enough....:smokin research kinda guy
     
  3. Luke Filmer

    Luke Filmer Member

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    Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquatic C...

    I dont think anyone on this forum is going to hate you for expressing your opinion. As a matter of fact...I think we would all be better off if everyone did express their opinions to our legislature, and our government.
    Too many of us dont.
    That is the only way it will change.
     
  4. Mike Etgen

    Mike Etgen Not Quite A Luddite, But Can See One From Here

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    More thoughts

    New River Mike

    fish-artist...

    You're absolutely right - "We've met the enemy,and he is us."

    It's the absolute last place we look...and it's so much easier to blame someone else (politicians, democrats, republicans, immigrants, old white guys, etc.)

    As far as population is concerned, there's no question we've grown - and more critically - moved. The population has followed the jobs, which for the most part have moved towards the coasts in general, and towards cheap labor markets and away from dying industries (mining, family farming, manufacturing, etc.) and the heartland.

    Cheap, subsidized industrial, commercial, and residential development is followed by migrating populations. We bring with us those same desires for the better life that settled this continent in the first place. Few of us look at the real cost of providing the infrastructure that supports the housing and transportation of goods, services, and people.

    It's the WalMartization of America, and we're all pushing a shopping cart.

    You gotta laugh, because it's so sad...

    :dunno
     
  5. sea

    sea Member

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    Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquatic C...

    Every time I see an article about this administration that pisses me off (happens quite often lately) I send it to every friend I have. My hope is that this type of grass-roots information spreading may help people open their eyes enough to get out and vote. This new change will place even more weight on local and state jurisdictions to hold-up buffers, approve (or disaprove) forest practice applications, and oversight of critical areas. All the while having their own budget's cut because of Bush's war. Now I'm steaming...
     
  6. dude_1967

    dude_1967 Chris

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    Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquat...

    Another rich topic.

    The original post brought a press article into focus which, in my opinion, is of great importance to Americans, especially Washingtonians.

    Every year there are incremental changes in policy, such as the one highlighted here, which weaken our protection of the environment. We consistently chose to use the environment at the cost of finding other, more costly solutions for housing, land, etc. It is essential that we begin to budget our consumption such that our way of life is sustainable.

    It's not the salamander, the owl, or the fish around which we must rally in order to protect forests. Rather, we must see ourselves as patrons of a mighty yet delicate environmental system which we have been given to use, protect and sustain. We must protect all of the environment in a sustainable fashion.

    I do not feel that this recent change in regulations is consistent with an attitude of sustainable patronage of our environment.

    This change of regulations is, in my opinion, an attempt to get cheap wood on the market quickly at the cost of non-replacable resources. Legitimate and well designed tree farms could provide adequate wood in amounts which would equal the expected gains brought about by the above mentioned change in regulations. However, this would take something like 8 years. And this sustainable solution would be too slow and too costly. In addition, selective logging should leave about 60% of all trees standing---not just a decorative hedge---in order to be effectively managed over generations of forest life.

    The proposed change will eliminate valuable forest resources.

    Sincerely, Chris.
     
  7. Jim Wallace

    Jim Wallace Smells like low tide

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    Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquatic C...

    Most major corporations in the U.S.A. don't like "being shackled and hobbled" by environmental protection, as they compete globally with corporations from other countries that do not have much, if any, environmental protection going on within their borders. Also low wages and lack of workers' rights as well as outright human rights violations going on in many of these countries (China, for example) give them an unfair advantage in keeping their costs of production down.
    Rather than go back to the dark ages of unfettered rape and pillage and pollution in this country, as the Bush Administration would do, we should simply boycott products imported from other countries whose people or governments allow these violations (of human rights and enlightened stewardship of the planet) to continue.
    I'm doing my best to NOT BUY ANYTHING MADE IN CHINA anymore, or Brazil, or Indonesia, or any other place where such violations are rampant. Also, I try to make educated choices when buying ANYTHING, no matter where it is produced. Consume less. Recycle. Blow up your TV.

    Jimbo:professor

    Oh yeah, get your "tubes" tied after the first two mini me's. Those cute little babies grow up to be full-on resource-consuming eco-disasters, in spite of themselves, just like me and you. Worse yet, they become "teenagers" for the last few years of your watch over them, causing you untold grief, expense, and gray hairs. I am thankful that I avoided this fiasco! :dunno
     
  8. Jim Wallace

    Jim Wallace Smells like low tide

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    Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquat...

    This proposed change is part of the Bush plan to relentlessly attack environmental legislation on all fronts and in every niche. These rapists are not just greedy, they are vindictive and mean-spirited.
    It has been called "The Texas Cheney Saw Massacre."

    Jimbo:reallymad
     
  9. jlange

    jlange New Member

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    Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquat...

    Being that I work in the lumber business, I felt compelled to comment on the issue. Lumber practices now are much more advanced than in the past and there is a much greater effort being made by lumber companies to be environmentally responsible. In fact, a few years ago a movie was made by a former green peace leader about how current logging is indeed environmentally responsible and not harmful (long term) to the environment. I agree, clear cuts are definately an eyesore and not pleasant to look at, but I would also like to point out to all conservationalists that the more restrictions placed on lumber companies the more the price goes up and the more expensive housing becomes. The more expensive housing becomes, the higher your property taxes are. It is a decision that affects everyone, not just fish and wildlife.
    I you don't mind paying an extra $20-30K for your house and an a couple extra hundred per year on property taxes, by all means lobby against this new law. From my experience in the lumber business, many of people's concerns about the environment are a direct result of the media and other groups who blow things way out of proportion. In fact, environmentalists hire people to work for $350-500 a week as activists for them. I'm not trying to slam anyone or imply that you don't have valid concerns, but don't buy into everything you hear in the media. Do your own research and see what you find. And by all means don't complain next time you go the lumber store and want a 10ft peice of clear cedar that costs $40 a peice.

    Jason
    "10% of the anglers catch 90% of the fish." Happy fishing!
     
  10. hikepat

    hikepat Patrick

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    Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquat...

    Mike you can fish with me any time. More and bigger possesions does not mean better you are very right.

    Why are houses getting bigger and the number of people living in each one getting smaller. Bigger houses are harder to clean, cost more to heat or cool, more up keep and I feel are the reason that families are not as close as they used to be. I was hard for Jimmey to hide his playboy from mom and dad in a 1400 sq ft home. Now days is some of the huge houses out there today Jimmey can be gone for days and Mom or Dad not even know or Jimmey can hide in the house with his crack pipe in hand and even the smoke is not noticed.

    Give me a small house so when I get around to having a family I can keep my family close. Keep me from giving my children so many things that I forget to give them love.
     
  11. Mike Etgen

    Mike Etgen Not Quite A Luddite, But Can See One From Here

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    Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquat...

    New River Mike

    hikepat...

    Thanks for the supportive words. I'll just have to take you up on that fishing sometime. I wish I knew the answer to some of your questions. :dunno

    When we talk about how homes have gotten bigger, etc., it reminds me of a very brief conversation I had a few years back with a neighbor in Roanoke, Virginia.

    I'd divorced and moved there with my son, buying a post-WWII frame home that was 720 square feet upstairs with a basement that was partially finished - so about 1100 square feet total.

    The neighborhood was filled with homes of similar vintage and style and one elderly neighbor who lived across the street always waved and spoke. One day I had a couple of minutes and struck up some conversation that included asking him how long he'd lived there...

    "I bought this house when it was brand new in '49 and never have lived anywhere else since. And, we raised five kids here, too..." His voice trailed off there, as some of the memories surely came back to him.

    Think about it - seven people, three modest bedrooms, an eat-in kitchen, and one bathroom.

    Today many people would be ashamed and felt they should have done better...
     
  12. JRSly

    JRSly Oncorhynchus clarki clarki

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    Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquat...

    I remember writing a post very similar to this mention of bigger homes about a year ago. I agreee completely. I remember some one brought up an idea about having a limit on how big your house can be by the number of famliy members you have living under the roof. I know there are a lot of flaws that needed to be worked out, but it sounded like a good idea. It seems to me that there are a lot of people out there that have huge houses but only two or three people living under the roof, that is just crazy in my mind, not only is it a waste of money, but also a waste of natural resources. This idea would also be pretty neat in the way that people that would still want to show off would have to come up with some really cool house designs. Well the main reason for this reply was to just say good point, so there you go.

    Sly
     
  13. Stephen Rice

    Stephen Rice Senior Member

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    Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquat...

    Oh I am glad you wrote cause I have a question that I would really like an answer to. How come the logging companies feel it's nessecary to cut down Old Growth trees? Dont' they have enough on there tree farms. I am not trying to be a smartallec I am really serious. and couldn't the lumber companies keep the cost down by not selling at cut rate prices to overseas markets? (I don't actually know if that is true it's just what I heard)I am all for logging if it's done responsibly and without cutting down old growth. I don't want to guys to loose there lively hood but it would be nice if there grandchildren got to see what an old growth tree looked like without having to travel to the interior of alaska.:dunno
     
  14. Steve Buckner

    Steve Buckner Mother Nature's Son

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    Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquatic C...

    Wouldn't it be great if we had a president who advocated that we cut back, preserve, and help humanity as opposed to continue to spend and exhaust the world? We need a president who acknowledges global warming, not one who refuses to attend the Kyoto Summit...

    Did you know that we (US) spends more on trash bags for our garbage than most of the world makes in a year?

    We're 25% of the population consuming 90% of the world's resources. Somehow we feel that we "deserve it", that "this is what God wants"...

    Capitalism is very different from democracy, we need somebody in power who isn't there to make the lobbyists more money. We need a change.

    While it's true that wood is a good product, we also have to recognize that if it weren't for governmental restrictions we'd have already wasted the entire Olympic Peninsula forests. Thank God Theodore Roosevelt had the foresight to protect what was left of the forests out there.

    We've decimated the old growth forests in this country. Only 1% of the old Redwoods remain in Northern California. Every time I'm on my way to the Oly. Pen., I see trucks continuing to haul out 600-700 year-old trees.

    I believe that the timber industry wants us to believe that they're doing such a great job replanting and regrowing what was harvested, but if that is the case, why do they continue to harvest old growth? The reason was pointed to earlier in this thread, it' because demand is higher than production and the only way to meet the demand is to harvest existing old growth. Wood is a great product, it just takes more time than we have to grow it.

    Steve Buckner
    www.northwestflyfisherman.com
     
  15. wet line

    wet line New Member

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    Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquatic C...

    I certainly hope everyone was just as irate when the Clinton administration closed many of the roads in National forests and then had many of the bridges removed to limit access and greatly impede fire fighting access. Then a Canadian gold mining company was given open pit mining rights in some National Forest lands.
    As I see it this is going to put the logging under local control of the Heritage foundation and states. At most it is about a 14% max and probably a lot less than that. I preffer local control as opposed to Federal control. It is much easier to influence on a local level.
    As for the Sierra Club I consider them to be extremists in their views.

    Dave
     
  16. akflyrod

    akflyrod Banned or Parked

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    Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquatic C...

    hey wet line, hope you know that all the forest service roads that are built by the forest service for the exclusive use of the timber cartels is funded by none other than you and i. that's right, we pay for the roads that the eco-terrorists use to line their pockets. clintons designation of the roadless areas was a last ditch attempt to stem the tide of timber company-owned, tax-payer-paid-for roads being built. one more thing, if i hear another person bitch about forest fires and the need to fight them and protect the homes that don't belong where they are built, i'm gonna vomit. build a home in the forest and it might burn down. i'm currently building a 1200 sqft log home in denali state park, so i know the concerns. forest fires are a necessary natural process. i consider it an insult to our intelligence when someone brings up forest fires, like they are some sort of intelligent being, out to get us. akflyrod

    ps. let me get this straight. you would rather have people like slade gorton and bob packwood deciding how we handle our forest. scary.

    pss. forest fires are the friend of big timber companies. look at all the "salvage" riders that have been attached to such legislation as the ones put forth after 9/11 to assist families of the deceased. that's right. our friends from the gop attached or attempted to attach riders that allowed for weakening of our environmental laws onto 9/11 legislation. the gall that these pricks exhibit even in the aftermath of our worst national tragedy is nothing short of disgusting.

    psss. i'm getting a little worked up, as you can see. but i will say one more thing. anyone who supports our current administration or any gop admin of the last 5 decades shouldn't be taken seriously on this site or any other concerning fishing and/or recreating in the outdoors. period.
     
  17. FishPirate

    FishPirate New Member

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    Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquat...

    Last time I checked the forest roads were a public good, except when closed for everyone. Show me a forest road (in a national forest) that excludes public use, and allows the use of private corporations. By federal law they need to allow public access.

    I worked on the roadless initiative, and you're absolutely crazy if you think it was a result of blocking timber sales. The real reason was economics--roads cost too much to maintain if you can't sell timber to pay for them. Not only that, modern forest practices do not have the same requirements for roads, so even if you allow timber sales, you don't need all of the infrastructure.

    By the way, the problem isn't with forest fires, the problem is 100 years of fire suppression coupled with a ten year drought. It's about fuel. The fires we've had in the past few years are a direct result of Smokey the Bear. At this point, we're better off in using sound forest practices to remove large, continuous tracts of fuel in areas where fire suppression has been practiced, or we need to be willing to pay the price of fires that burn millions of acres and destroy private property. We have the obligation to use sound practices in doing so. I could take you to hundreds of sites where timber sales have occured in the past 10 years on FEDERAL lands in Washington, Oregon, and Idaho, and you wouldn't know the difference!

    As far as I'm concerned, GW is as much a pork-barrel politician as anyone, although it isn't exclusive to those in the GOP. Take a look at this year's budget, there's so much pork (from both sides) that I believe GW is setting a record in the "big Government" category, and has left many of his republican roots. To all you conservatives out there, beware, he may become a democrat afterall!

    How many of you have actually READ the Aquatic Conservation Strategy?

    FP, member of the Bill of Rights Party :thumb
     
  18. wet line

    wet line New Member

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    Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquatic C...

    Just to get this straight I am a Libertarian. I don't think either major party is a friend to anyone other than themselves. Both take huge contributions from big buisness and special interests alike!
    The state of Washington has been ruled by Democrats for the last 20 plus years and just what have they done for the sportsman. Lets see ther WDFW has been gutted, the EPA has been gutted, Boeing was given huge incentives at tax payer expense as well as the high tech corporations. A marina was built on the south side of Magnolia that is highly sensitive or was, Asarco was given a hand slap, the third runway is being shoved down our throats with little concern about impacts, the two new stadiums in Seattle, one of which was voted down and the other miss represented, have been built with little in the way of impact statements. Major corporations like Boeing can build with very litlle government oversite, and I have personally witnessed the removal of contaminated soils that were in turn used for fill in wet lands.
    Neither party is better than the other as far as I see
    it. They both feed off the same barrel! They both bring about a certain amount of contempt. I check the voting records and who contributes what to whom. I do not buy into the media hype nor the party statements. I look and see how they vote and what they do.

    Dave
     
  19. C Van

    C Van coming soon to a stream near you

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    Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquatic C...

    If you cant tell from the number of posts I am usually a lurker on this site, but this issue has me tossing in my $0.02. For us to put all the blame on Bush seems a little harsh. It has been said but I will repeat it, it is our own demands that feed the economic machine. It is up to us to change and inspire change of our ways, so that the demands for our timber and other natural resources decreases. The president has a lot on his plate, with defending our country and our freedoms the one that I would consider the most important. So I think we should be mad at ourselves for the excessive size of houses, lack of reuse/recylce programs, waste and junk mail (5 unwanted pieces today). I don't know how to change it other than every day to make my impact as small as possible, and maybe inspire someone else to do the same. And besides, do we really think that someone who has repeatedly married for money, not written one piece of legislation for the enviroment, and seems to change his views depending on which group he is talking to, is not going to be influenced by big money?:dunno
     
  20. segjdg1

    segjdg1 New Member

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    Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquat...

    Lets look at the facts. The economy was already starting a recession when President Bush took office. Then we had a navy plane shot to hell and held hostage in CHINA,And then 9/11 happened.
    Quite alot for a new President just into his first year of office. The war on terror isn't going to be cheap and his tax cuts have started to work. The amount of the defecit is not really a big deal in the large scope of things.The U.S has a person who stands his ground and does notwaver from his core beliefs. I say 4 more years for my Great Commander in Chief!! and to Hell with all you tree hugging, bleeding heart whining LIBERALS :bawling
     

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