(NFR) Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquatic C...

Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by ChrisC, Mar 24, 2004.

  1. ChrisC Member

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    Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquat...

    Putting aside who you are going to vote for, the question I have is whether these changes also constitute sound economic policy. First, are current regulations so obtrusive that the cost of lumber for building a home make the cost of housing prohibitive? I would argue other factors are far more important. Second, does removing environmental protections cause downstream effects at the expense of non-timber based businesses, e.g. commercial and sport fishing? I would argue that the economic value of healthy ecosystems due to sustainable and watershed-friendly harvest practices is far greater than what clearcuts or virtual clear cuts would generate.
  2. ChrisC Member

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    Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquat...

    What was the topic originally about?
  3. C Van coming soon to a stream near you

    Posts: 136
    Everson, WA, USA.
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    Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquat...

    I do NOT let me repeat NOT support the logging, I just think that we are to willing to rely on goverment to make decisions for us. I can't imagine how many trees we kill with every law that we pass. Is local control the answer? maybe, the I like the direction the state is going with c&r laws. But I still think the dollar rules and no matter who is in office and what damage will be done downstream there will still be clearcuts. If we can reduce the demand, anyway we can, hemp, our own choices, education, then there will be less clear cuts. They won't cut down trees if the just sit on shelves collecting dust.
  4. flydreamin New Member

    Posts: 119
    Lake Stevens, Washington, U.S.A.
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    Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquat...

    I'm very sorry for this outburst that's about to happen but do you really believe that he defending our freedoms. The fact is that we have lost more freedoms since 9/11 because of the choices that our president and his followers have made. Though it was the most horrible day in our countries near past, what these terrorists where trying to take away from us is our freedom and it is happening daily, we now live in a time of fear and are told that Bush is our only answer and we should be in fear. Ever heard of a thing called the Patriot act, most of the freedoms we hold most dear are raped daily by this act, due to no other but Baby Bush.
    Here is a small list by the associated press of the freedoms I speak of:
    FREEDOMS LOST SINCE 9-11-01

    * FREEDOM OF ASSOCIATION: Government may monitor religious and political institutions without suspecting criminal activity to assist terror investigation.

    * FREEDOM OF INFORMATION: Government has closed once-public immigration hearings, has secretly detained hundreds of people without charges, and has encouraged bureaucrats to resist public records requests.

    * FREEDOM OF SPEECH: Government may prosecute librarians or keepers of any other records if they tell anyone that the government subpoenaed information related to a terror investigation.

    * RIGHT TO LEGAL REPRESENTATION: Government may monitor federal prison jailhouse conversations between attorneys and clients, and deny lawyers to Americans accused of crimes.

    * FREEDOM FROM UNREASONABLE SEARCHES: Government may search and seize Americans' papers and effects without probable cause to assist terror investigation.

    * RIGHT TO A SPEEDY AND PUBLIC TRIAL: Government may jail Americans indefinitely without a trial.

    * RIGHT TO LIBERTY: Americans may be jailed without being charged or being able to confront witnesses against them.

    Copyright © 2002, The Associated Press

    P.S. This is not meant personally towards anyone on this forum, it is just one idiots opnion.
    He spoke from above and said to us "What you catch you shall release!".
  5. C Van coming soon to a stream near you

    Posts: 136
    Everson, WA, USA.
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    Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquat...

    There is no need to apologize to me for your opinion, and I hope that I do not offend you with mine. I chose to beleive that freedom is not free and i also think that the pres and congress reacted as best as they could with the cards they were delt. Hind sight is a great thing and I think the best part of the patriot act was that it was tempory. I would hope that with time to reasses the threats to our country the law will change.
  6. C Van coming soon to a stream near you

    Posts: 136
    Everson, WA, USA.
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    Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquat...

    i also think that one of the costs of freedom is the responsibilty of each of us to care for the enviroment and minimize of impact on this planet.
  7. Kalm Member

    Posts: 446
    Cheney, The Dry Side
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    Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquatic C...

    If you subscribe to the theory that this is the greatest country on earth, then it is undeniable that we have reached this point because of a balance that has been struck. In other words, we are a great nation because of high taxes and despite high taxes. We are a great nation because of strong environmental laws that protect nature, and despite environental laws that are weak enough to permit profit.

    That being said, what matters is how we improve in the future, and the current administration's policies appear grotesquely regressive. You can't tell me that if we landed a guy on the moon, and irrigated the Columbia Basin that we can't replace the old, outdated timber economy with a new resource industry that is environmentally sensitive. And do so in less than a decade. Now I'm sure you small government/free marketeers will submit that renenewable resource industries will come to bear when demand increases and the market demands it, but I think this is an instance where the damage being done to the environment has outpaced the economic need. Government needs to lead the charge in providing greater incentives to move away from the harvest of natural timber and on to more innovative projects like the potlatch tree farm on I-84 east of the Dalles.

    Two more things to consider. Only 4% of the timber harvested in Washington comes off of public lands. Also, the fall in recent timber prices and increase in mill closures has quite a bit to do with a glut of cheap Canandian Timber on the market.


    "Below us the trees grew clumps of trees,
    raised families of trees and they,
    As proud as we tossed their heads in the
    wind and flung good seeds away."

    - Woody Guthrie
  8. C Van coming soon to a stream near you

    Posts: 136
    Everson, WA, USA.
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    Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquatic C...

    I revert back to I do NOT support the changes in regs.
  9. Chuckabug New Member

    Posts: 49
    Issaquah, WA, USA.
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    Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquatic C...

    When all the prices for houses go up, due to lack of timber product, will all you left wing people be willing to take up the slack and house another family with you? Of course not, you will bitch about how the current leader has ignored the common man and has only big business in mind. If the logging happens, can you tell me for sure....that anything will happen to the environment? Most leftists believe that evolution has brought us this far. But over the thousands of millenea has not evolution kept itself in check? What is going to happen to the environment???? Can you know for sure?? NO! You just want another reason to bash a leader that does not think about themselves, like you do. So tyical of liberals, can't run FOR anything, just gotta run against something. Pitty....
  10. flydreamin New Member

    Posts: 119
    Lake Stevens, Washington, U.S.A.
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    Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquat...

    Plain and simply this will in time come down to the have and have nots. Always in my short life I have believed one thing and that is for one person to have to much one person must have to little. In the end it does come down to big business and to be more percise ir comes down to big money. The fact of the matter is that there are people out there living on the street who have nothing with children who have no choice and on the other hand there are people who own many acrs of land with large houses, rolles royces and god knows what else. This issue has very little to do with timber and everything to do with greed! No I will not let these people into my home but I will always say why must so many have less than nothing and so few have more than enough.
    P.S. Bush has to much and supports those who are like him!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    He spoke from above and said to us "What you catch you shall release!".
  11. Browntrout New Member

    Posts: 29
    Bellevue, WA, USA.
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    Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquat...

    WOW, this is quite the topic. Politics and economics are tough. I love fishing and the beautiful outdoors as much as anyone on this site. However, I don't think it's all that necessary to have forest managers look for rare plants and animals before logging. The USFS and Bureau of Land Management will still use info provided by state heritage programs like the WNHP to collect info about native and rare species in these areas. Isn't that what the Washington Natural Heritage Program does? Remember, environmentalists can also lie about what kind of damage can be done by easing these restrictions. It might be costing forest managers too much money to individually look through their land for these rare plants and animals. I wrote a paper a couple years back in college on the economics of logging and the environmental impacts it has. OK, I know I got a D on it, but I think it is important to remember that we all have to give up a little in this great big world to make everyone happy. Like someone said earlier, Bush has a lot on his plate right now. I would hate to see terrorists poison are rivers or even worse. Anyway, having said that, does anyone know if Teddy Roosevelt has any grandkids I could vote for in this coming election? OK, I said enough, I'm going to go finish watching Jeremiah Johnson now. FISH ON!
  12. Chuckabug New Member

    Posts: 49
    Issaquah, WA, USA.
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    Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquat...

    Boo Hoo!!! I'm so sick of people talking about others that don't have anything, no life, no money, no future... How about you?? You have a computer, can go out and flyfish w/ your 500.00$ sage rod. Everyone makes choices in their life. If you make the wrong choices that is your own damn fault. Don't come to me now and say that I should feel sorry for someone that can't think for themselves. You say Bush is for big business and he is wrong. Yet you live in a house, probably here on the west side, in one of the most heavily taxed states but still find time and money to go out and participate in a sport that requires an expendable amount of money. It's easy to bitch about people that you see as having too much but you need to look at yourself first.. You are no better, yet far worse than most. Keep your liberal ranting to yourself. I'll see you on the Yakima, no doubt you will be in a Clackacraft, so will I.
  13. steve New Member

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    Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquatic C...

    All I have to say on this is HEMP and the GREEN PARTY!!!
  14. flydreamin New Member

    Posts: 119
    Lake Stevens, Washington, U.S.A.
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    Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquat...

    First of all poor children who live in the street did not make that choice,as for my computer I built it myself for a third of the price that you could buy the same one for and it is my business(web designer). My Sage rod is a 40 dollar rainshadow blank that I built myself and my house is a small house in comparicon to lets say bill gates or many others. Once again I must say children in the guter did not make that choice and have much fewer options to excape there situation. As to the taxation of the west side, Icame from California so don't even start about the price of living. I look at myself everyday and no I'm not worse than most others, the fact is that I was disabled in a car crash three years ago which destroyed my life at the time, and I know about choices, I went back to school graduated top of my class and reclaimed my life. One of the few things I can do for few days is fling around some cheap fly on my cheap rod in my cheap pontoon boat and then go back to my less than stellar mansion. Though I do have it better than some, not by much and at anytime it could be me on that street if god wills it. It sounds to me like your probably talking about yourself and feeling quite bad about it, so next time open your mouth about something you know, like clackacraft, sage and a lack of sympathy for anyone.

    He spoke from above and said to us "What you catch you shall release!".:dunno
  15. Kalm Member

    Posts: 446
    Cheney, The Dry Side
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    Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquat...

    Hey Chuckabug,

    What your argument boils down to is values. You seem hell-bent on defending people who place wealth and material possession above all else. Personally I don't believe greed and glutony to be of much value. As for corporations like Large Timber companies, they have no soul, and their one motivation is profit. So obeying environmentally sensitive timber practices or helping out the less fortunate in our society are counter productive to the end-all-be-all of their existence which is immediate profit.

    But the most absurd argument in your polemic is the underlying notion that people (or most corporations for that matter) are self reliant and don't need help from the government. This is the bill of goods that the Republicans have so effectively sold the American people over the last decade to place themselves in power. Everyone wants to hear that they are self sufficient, and they don't need help from the government to live their lives. What a crock! A few anecdotal exceptions aside, no one in our society could survive without a relatively large government. From subsidized hydro-electric power, to the roads you drive on to go to work or fishing, to the pristine and protected wild and scenic places you admire, you could not live in the lap of luxury that is the U.S. without government. Another great example is the dry land wheat farmers of Eastern Washington who vote Republican. Crop prices are subsidized, the roads to their house in the middle of nowhere were built by the County and State as were the roads their trucks drive to transport wheat, the ability to navigate barges down the Snake and Columbia, even the crop insurance is federally subsidized.

    I'm not neccessarily saying they're not entitled, just quit bitching about high taxes or big government.

    Lastly, Chuckabug, go look up the definition of the word liberal and ask yourself if that description really fits the ugly, uncaring, whining, evil bastard you make us out to be. Watch out, liberals are everywhere, even in Eastern Washington, and if you're not careful, one is likely to run up and give you a big fat hug someday which is apparently what you need.

    Cheers!
  16. flydreamin New Member

    Posts: 119
    Lake Stevens, Washington, U.S.A.
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    Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquat...

    Tell him kalm
    He spoke from above and said to us "What you catch you shall release!".:thumb :thumb :thumb :thumb :thumb :professor
  17. chadk Be the guide...

    Posts: 5,057
    Snohomish, WA.
    Ratings: +41 / 0
    Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquat...

    Flydreamin, please tell me which one (or more?) of these (see list below) actaully impacts your life in any way???

    As for the evil rich big money polititions - are you suggesting that JFKerry is better in some way regarding this? The guy hasn't done an honest days work in his life. Yet he's going to understand the working man better and help get kids off the street?

    I would consider voting for a Democrat, but JFKerry is a a joke. Give me a serious, hard working candidate with a backbone, respect for our nation, and solid\consistent record, and he'll have my vote. Then again, maybe the Liberals want him in office simply because they know he has no backbone and he'll do whatever they tell him. Clearly the guy can't make and stick to a real decision himself. It's all becoming so clear... LOL

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    FREEDOM OF ASSOCIATION: Government may monitor religious and political institutions without suspecting criminal activity to assist terror investigation.

    * FREEDOM OF INFORMATION: Government has closed once-public immigration hearings, has secretly detained hundreds of people without charges, and has encouraged bureaucrats to resist public records requests.

    * FREEDOM OF SPEECH: Government may prosecute librarians or keepers of any other records if they tell anyone that the government subpoenaed information related to a terror investigation.

    * RIGHT TO LEGAL REPRESENTATION: Government may monitor federal prison jailhouse conversations between attorneys and clients, and deny lawyers to Americans accused of crimes.

    * FREEDOM FROM UNREASONABLE SEARCHES: Government may search and seize Americans' papers and effects without probable cause to assist terror investigation.

    * RIGHT TO A SPEEDY AND PUBLIC TRIAL: Government may jail Americans indefinitely without a trial.

    * RIGHT TO LIBERTY: Americans may be jailed without being charged or being able to confront witnesses against them.
  18. creekx spent spinner

    Posts: 362
    Rancho Deluxe
    Ratings: +16 / 0
    The sky is falling!

    Some facts for you to ponder:

    The "big corporation" scandals occurred under our last President. The bill has finally come due for 8 years of corruption.

    The stock market began it's plummet in April of 2000, 9 months before Bush took office.

    History has shown secular extremism to be far more dangerous and sinister than religious fanaticism - just look at the score from the last century.

    Hope this helps.

    BTW, could you please name ONE civil liberty you've lost? Clearly you still have the freedom to spew vitriol and hatred towards Christians and the President.
  19. pwoens Active Member

    Posts: 2,570
    Spokane, Washington, USA.
    Ratings: +5 / 0
    Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquatic C...

    Its funny that you say we are screwed cause our country is ran by big corporations and christian fanatics....the only true hope and faith we have is in Christ!!! We are only here on this earth for a short time compared to "eternity".

    I did not mean to sway from the original post but I had make my voice heard on the "christian fanatics" statement. I do agree with most everything else you are saying Headstrong, and am on your side!! I will also say that some so-called christians, are nothing more than so-called christians...these individuals are what make non believers not believe. Lets not forget our roots, if we want to use that terminology, and what our country was founded on..christianity and the belief in our one true God.

    In a world full of negativity and terrible things, I am calm yet excited to know that there is more to life

    But yes...lets stop the farming of our beautiful resources...look at the OP...its ugly to drive through now with all the clear cuts!!


    ~Patrick ><>
  20. ChrisC Member

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    Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquat...

    What I have heard several times in this thread is that the pricing of housing will go up due to the higher cost of lumber. My question is doesn't the current cost of lumber reflect the environmental regulations in place? Since the discussion at hand is about the loosening of protective restrictions, not increased regulation, so I'm not sure I follow this reasoning.

    Second, I would venture to guess that the cost of lumber is only a small fraction of the total component cost of housing. Perhaps not even in the top ten. Otherwise you wouldn't see good sized homes in the heartland available for around $100-200K