(NFR) Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquatic C...

Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by ChrisC, Mar 24, 2004.

  1. Chris Bailey

    Chris Bailey Member

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    Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquat...

    Well, without regulations timber companies would probably aggressively clearcut the last of the old growth forests. Is that a fair statement? That is the way it worked before and I'm sure it would continue until gone, if allowed. It probably would have happened long ago if not for regulation. Then, who is to blame for the lost timber jobs? It is no different than the commercial fishermen who have fished themselves out of a job.

    The first thing that would happen to the environment is the loss of a mature forest of old growth trees, DUH! Pretty simple, but I guess not everyone feels that these forests have an intrinsic value. Second, do you know what happens to rain water in a rain forest when there is no forest? I know what doesn't happen, it doesn't get sucked up into the tree. You would be amazed how much water flows through a mature tree. Without the trees, more rain water flows across the ground surface, picking up topsoil and depositing it on the bottom of rivers. Also, since loggers wouldn't leave riparian zones if they weren't forced to, the erosion would increase and valuable insect, bird, and small mammal habitat just wouldn't be there. Removing habitat is a pretty simple environmental result of unchecked logging. You don't have to be a scientist to figure that out. The responsibility falls on the timber companies to prove the extent of logging that would reduce these impacts to acceptable levels and stick to that.

    I don't think these "leftists" or "liberals" you describe are simply pushing "against" something. Just look at it as us pushing FOR clean streams to fish in, wildlife habitat, public lands to hunt, old growth forests to hike in, etc. Without these, what the heck would we spend our big tax cuts on? I didn't bust my hump in school and at work to sit on my butt in a big, fancy, suburban home without any place worth spending outdoors. If that day comes I'll be bitching about past leaders like Bush who ignored the common man (fishers, hunters, hikers, mtn bikers, etc.) and sold our last forests to the highest bidders to save a few jobs and so timber CEOs will go to their fund raisers.

    Oh, and another thing. Lumber prices are up right now. You know why? Apparently, much of it is going to rebuild Iraq. Who do we have to thank for higher house prices, again?
     
  2. BOBLAWLESS

    BOBLAWLESS New Member

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    Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquat...

    With all due respect Browntrout, your post saddens me greatly. Your, "D", indicative of substandard performance, is not necessarilly all your fault. It talks as well about an educational system that failed to lead you to higher levels of thinking, a more analytical digestion of the facts of the issue. And I am just too tired today to know even where to begin with you...
    Bob, the Oh well, at least have a nice day.:thumb
     
  3. Icanfly

    Icanfly aka Matt

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    Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquat...

    Hey everybody, my username is new but I have actually been a member(though a quiet one) for a few years under a different name. I get kinda fired up about issues like this but I'll keep what I have to say respectful; I mean no offense to anyone. First, in response to Clintons removal of roads and bridges...what is wrong with that? Yes, fire fighting access is impeded, but forest fires are a natural part of nature and if there are no houses and people to worry about, letting a fire burn is the best option anyway. It is actually healthy for a forest. Second, in response to the comments on evolution; evolution really doesn't count for humans anymore. We have found ways to control it and get around it. If we hadn't, the human population would be way smaller, cut back by rampant disease and starvation. Without our brains and the ability to partially control and exploit our environment, we'd be in trouble for lack of physical prowess. Therefore, since we now find ourselves in the "drivers seat" we need to take a serious look at the progress our government and the world are making in raising level and quality environmental awareness and protection. We need to be looking foreward to other options for modes of fuel and construction materials, rather than using the last of what we are so fortunate to have. Our natural forest will eventually be exhausted at this pace...and what then? eh? Better to figure it out now while we still have things to get us by until we do, rather than suddenly find ourselves without any options. I don't think our current administration is making any steps in the right direction and that is why I will not be voting for you know who in the upcoming election. Sorry about the long post.
    :thumb
     
  4. Kent Lufkin

    Kent Lufkin Remember when you could remember everything?

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    Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquat...

    See what happens when I take a day off and go fishing? This board erupts into another polarized, partisan political piss-fest. As I read through the thread, I'm reminded of the old adage: "Don't confuse me with facts, I already know what I want to believe."

    A recent editorial in the Wall Street Journal remarking on the recent trend towards polarization in American politics. Left or right, the mantra of both significant parties today is 'my way or the highway'. Congressmen who dare to seek political compromise with their counterparts from across the aisle are threatened with being cut off from their party's financial support in their re-election campaigns.

    Criticisms of one administration's policies are met with the lame excuse that whatever bad is happening now all started with the previous administration (as long as it was of the opposite party.) But credit for anything positive is always as a result of the current, not the previous administration. Every congressman is for term limits. But since it would be political suicide, none vote for it

    But what's really wrong with compromise? No one has a monopoly on perfection. As Ray Kroc once said, "None of us is as good as all of us." The process of compromise is built in to the Constitution, designed as it was from the incredible foresight of our founding fathers. Yet prople seem to regard compromise as the ultimate weakness - and one that will be paid for with by bankrput political capital.

    Here's an idea about what it might take to jump-start the concept of compromise. The Bush Cheney ticket will run unchanged this fall. A vote for them means four more years of ballooning deficits, growing government and corporate favoritism to the exclusion of the environment and people like you and me. But Kerry's ticket is as yet incomplete. What if he were to offer the VP slot to the best presidential candidate we'll never get to vote for, John McCain?

    Besides being a fellow Viet Nam vet, McCain is a political moderate who calls a spade a spade. While it's questionable if he would accept such a nomination, the very notion of offering the number two slot in an incoming administration to a political and idealogical opposite might send one heck of a message about the importance of finding common ground.

    By the way, how was fishing yesterday? Why thanks for asking, a tailwalking 19" desert lake triploid christened my new bamboo rod.
     
  5. Steve Buckner

    Steve Buckner Mother Nature's Son

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    Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquat...

    Fortuna, why does somebody always have to resort to using reason in situations such as this...:rofl

    Here we were, enjoying another lively thread and then you come along...:p :p :p

    Steve Buckner
    www.northwestflyfisherman.com
     
  6. jlange

    jlange New Member

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    Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquat...

    There are several reasons why companies log old growth areas. Let me prequalify what I'm about to say by stating that human greed is the driving force behind all of this. Without demand for products that require old growth logging, there would be no need for it.
    Reasons why companies log old growth areas
    1) Although trees are a renewable resource, they take a long time to grow. Often times, in order to meet the demands for larger size lumber such as a 6x12, 2x12, 4x10 ect, logging old growth trees is necessary. From a 60 year old plantation grown tree, there is barely enough wood to make a 4x12. Being that most regulations that severly restrict logging companies from causing huge environmental damage have only been enforced in the last 10-15 years, There are not very many 60 year old trees that are plantation grown and even the ones that are available do not produce good quality wood. Therefore in order to achieve the quality and quantity that customers demand, there is no other viable option than to log old growth forests.
    2) Logging companies need to make money just like you and I do. Unfortunately due to the capitalists nature of most U.S. countries, corporation don't give a damn about anyone but themselves. This led to years of irresponsible logging practices that went unchecked and unchallenged by anyone. Finally the government stepped in and imposed regulations to help protect the forests and the species living in them.
    Fortunately due to intense pressure from the EPA and the government, logging companies now are forced to practice much more conservative and environmentally responsible havesting methods. Over the next 40-60 years the situation should improve because plantation trees will grow larger and will have a much greater capacity for producing quality lumber even in larger sizes. We are heading in the right direction evironmentally. The biggest challenge is not trying to stop logging but trying to curb demand or find other solutions to meet demand. Consider that last summer we had the biggest housing boom in over 40 years. Those houses require a lot of lumber to build. As Fortuna reminded me one time in another post, "There are just too damn many of us."

    Jason, sorry for writing a chapter, hope this helps
    "10% of the anglers catch 90% of the fish." Happy fishing!
     
  7. Stephen Rice

    Stephen Rice Senior Member

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    Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquat...

    Thanks for the Answer and thanks for explaining it. I didn't realize it took so long for trees to even become a marketable item. I see signs saying how long ago these trees were planted and I think to myself well these trees look like they could be used commerically. There must be a huge difference in the make of these trees in the PNW as compared to the trees in Georgia. Trees are harvested commercially there too. they seem to mature faster and and are alot smaller than ours. hmmm maybe the Hemp Idea will catch on sure would take the strain off of the old growth around here. and yes greed is the number one factor and it's such a shame:-(
    thanks again!
     
  8. Stephen Rice

    Stephen Rice Senior Member

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    Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquat...

    Oh man you have a new Bamboo Rod .... Well were are the pictures! what kind is it? what fly did you catch the triploid on? I am sick of this political crap. Give me some good fishing news anyday !:beer1
    Steve
     
  9. jlange

    jlange New Member

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    Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquatic C...

    Hey man, there is no compromise we are either run soley by big corporations, by a mixture of big corporations and government, or soley by the government. With no government involvement in business regulations, pure capitalism is allowed to run rampant and in the end only one player survives leaving us all at their mercy. If the government is soley in control...well I don't even want to think about that. Personally I'll take it the way it is where both have a little control and they push and shove each other enough to keep one another in check. Sorry, this is not a Utopian society and it never will be. Wake up and smell reality pal.

    Jason
     
  10. Kent Lufkin

    Kent Lufkin Remember when you could remember everything?

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    Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquatic C...

    >Personally I'll take it the way it is where both have a
    >little control and they push and shove each other
    >enough to keep one another in check. Sorry, this is
    >not a Utopian society and it never will be. Wake up
    >and smell reality pal.

    Here's a whiff of reality back at you - there is no 'pushing and shoving' between government and big business today. There are no checks and balances. The two are not only in bed together but are fornicating like newlyweds.

    I can't think of a single instance in the past three years where the administration has done anything to curb big business. Instead they continue to offer sweetheart deals, gutted regulations or selective enforcement. Here are some examples:

    The elimination of the current logging ban in the Tongass National Forest stands to benefit a handful of large, multinational timber companies. Why? Because US companies aren't as competitive as their Canadian counterparts due to their higher cost of business and the fact they've already cut down nearly all the old growth trees that aren't in protected areas like the Tongass.

    The coal and oil power-generating industry saves millions by not having to clear up their discharge due to a relaxing of the Clean Air act.

    Big real estate developers similarly score as the administration proposes to reclassify certain wetland as developable lands. Almost - this one was crapped after public outcry.

    The oil industry is offered a gift through a proposal to allow oil exploration and drilling in the ANWR. Good thing caribou can't vote.

    The administration stiffs the Kyoto Accords, citing 'weak science' and insisting that global warming is an illusion. After all, big business shouldn't be forced to spend money on a solution if there's no problem.

    Cheney's former employer Halliburton gets a blank check from the administration to 'rebuild' Iraq as well as to provide logistical support for the US Army. No other firm was even invited to submit a bid. Recently admitting to gross overcharges and billing fraud, does Halliburton lose their contract? NFW. They fire two low-level managers and all is forgiven.

    Criminal charges against 'Kenny Boy' Lay for his role in the Enron scandal are in slow motion thanks to Ken's status as a major GOP donor and Bush family friend. Meanwhile, the AG's office gets Martha Stewart as a consolation prize. Martha's 'crime' yield her about $45K in profit, less than the rounding error in calculating the value of Lay's retirement package. By the way, Martha is a Democratic contributor.

    I could go on but it's pretty easy to see a trend here. Is this is the whiff of reality you favor? I think it stinks.
     
  11. jlange

    jlange New Member

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    Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquat...

    Yeah, Southern Yellow Pine grows a lot faster than the species we have around hear. Some of the lumber our company stocks is Southern Yellow Pine and we even have products now that are certified by an independant environmental agency as being environmentally friendly.


    Jason
     
  12. jlange

    jlange New Member

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    Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquatic C...

    What do you call agencies like the EPA the SEC and other regulatory bodies? They do impose a lot of laws that restrict businesses from doing whatever they want and businesses because they pay a lot of taxes also have some leverage on the government. You've obviously done much more research into government scandals than I have but consider this- does anything make the news unless it is a scandal? Nothing is ever said about the effectiveness of the above mentioned agencies until a scandal breaks. Do I think most politicians aren't in bed with corporations- absolutely not, they are and they cheat the law anyway they can, but certain government organizations are in the business of regulation and control. There are a lot of things wrong with this world and especially this country but having lived overseas in an African nation for 10 years, I'll take our government over that any day. You want to talk about corrupt governments, look beyond our own borders and you may find yourself thinking differently about our government.

    Here are somethings to consider
    1) In many nations, the person in power favors what ever race or tribe they belong too often to the point of committing genocide against other tribes.
    2) In many other nations, bribery is a way of life. You won't get anywhere unless you pay off policemen, military officials and anyone else who can stand in your way. In Nairobi,Kenya, people pay an average of 13 bribes every day.
    3) In many other nations, the government officials horde all the money that comes into the country and tax the people so much that everyone is poor unless you work for the government.
    4) In many countries, none of the small businesses pay any taxes because they aren't big enough for the government to pursue and much less track.

    Personally, I still think we've got it pretty good even in this messed up country we live in. Going back to a former post I wrote, the media has an agenda which is tailored to the liberal and democratic point of view. They constantly blow things out of proportion without getting all the facts. I don't trust the media anymore as a reliable source of information because their view is so biased. If you got this information from the media then well... you know what I think.

    Jason, politicians suck and we are forced to choose the lesser of two evils.
    "10% of the anglers catch 90% of the fish." Happy fishing!
     
  13. jlange

    jlange New Member

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    Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquat...

    chadk,
    My sentiments exactly, I think we are forced to choose between the lesser of two evils and for that matter I'll take Bush anyday over JFKerry.

    J
     
  14. planktonguy

    planktonguy New Member

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    Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquatic C...

    Hear about this?

    The new director (last one quit mid-term) of the EPA, who let's not forget is appointed by the President, is from Utah and once owned a trout farm. I am told it was from his farm that whirling disease originated. Anyone else hear this?
     
  15. Kalm

    Kalm Member

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    Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquatic C...

    Jason,

    Though and I have many political differences, for the most part, your posts on this topic have been thoughtful and candid.

    A couple of points on your most recent post. 1) Isn't comparing our system to those of the third world an apples to oranges argument? I'm torn between the gridlock vs. cooperation question, but in determining our superiority let's use other developed nations in the comparison. 2) You dissapointed me on the "liberal media" comments. "Liberal Media" is a conservative mis-labeling of unbiased media. The BBC and NPR which are the scourge of the right are both a case in point. If someone is not smart enough to get their news from multiple sources, or be able to read between the lines, they're not gonna be open minded anyway.
     
  16. Stephen Rice

    Stephen Rice Senior Member

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    That is very cool! :thumb
     
  17. Stephen Rice

    Stephen Rice Senior Member

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    That is very cool! :thumb
     
  18. Kent Lufkin

    Kent Lufkin Remember when you could remember everything?

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    Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquatic C...

    Jason,

    Compared with Rwanda or Somalia, I certainly agree that the US is light years ahead in terms of freedoms and liberties afforded its citizens. However that doesn't absolve us of our responsibility to participate in the ongoing process of making sure those same benefits apply equally across the board and not just to a wealthy or privileged few or those with the right connections or platoons of lobbyists.

    This thread started with a news release about a proposed relaxation of regulations regarding loggin in old-growth forests. By definition a news release is intended for dissemination by media outlets.

    But you seem to feel that any news of scandal or wrongdoing is dubious since it comes from a media outlet. Does that mean you disbelieve the information contained in the release?

    If you generally disbelieve or distrust the media as a overly 'liberal' institution, how else then do you find out about what goes on in this country?

    How have you become aware of 'facts' that have been omitted in 'biased' news coverage that might lead a reasonable man to an alternate conclusion?

    It's certainly tempting to shoot the messanger when he brings unpleasant news. And certainly easier than altering your own belief system in response to contradictory input that may be contained in that news.

    I don't mean to seem as if I'm attacking you and will vigorously defend your right to believe what you wish. But I am curious to know how you support your thesis that 'everything's fine' in the US today and that government and big business are in some sort of harmonious balance.
     
  19. Steve Buckner

    Steve Buckner Mother Nature's Son

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    Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquatic C...

    Jlange,
    "I'll take our government over that any day. You want to talk about corrupt governments, look beyond our own borders and you may find yourself thinking differently about our government."

    In a recent study that took place late in 2003, the United States was ranked as the 18th most corrupt nation in the world...

    The Bush administration is relying on people to just accept what they're saying and not researching the issues on their own. As others have mentioned, it is imperative to get your news from other sources than those that are funded by large corporations.


    Steve Buckner
    www.northwestflyfisherman.com
     
  20. jlange

    jlange New Member

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    Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquatic C...

    I never said that everything is fine here, just that I'm willing to deal with it and I don't think it's all that bad. In terms of the media, perhaps I should have clarified that better. What I meant was mainstream media such as TV news, 90% of Newspapers, and a majority of radio stations too. You also misunderstand me concerning scandals, I never said they were dubious and that I believe they don't happen. The mainstream media presents the facts, just not all of them. It is very hard to come to a "reasonable" based on what the media throws our way these days. I tend to like to get information from several sources mostly online since I have easy access to hundreds of view points. Most of what I comment about is stuff I have thought about, stewed over and finally come to some type of definative decision about.
    "Compared with Rwanda or Somalia, I certainly agree that the US is light years ahead in terms of freedoms and liberties afforded its citizens. However that doesn't absolve us of our responsibility to participate in the ongoing process of making sure those same benefits apply equally across the board and not just to a wealthy or privileged few or those with the right connections or platoons of lobbyists."

    As for this statement, I do agree with you but what is equal? How you define it and how every other American defines it will always be different. From what I've read and heard, Democrats think that making all men equal involves taking money from rich people (many who earned it faily) and giving it to people who expect a handout. To create a fair society, much less an equal society is a noble aspiration and dream, but I do not believe it is possible. How do you propose we unify this melting pot of a country to the point where we are all equal? I seriously am curios to hear what you say and am not attacking you at all. I've heard it said many times before, "this system we have sucks, but it's the best we've got". So far I haven't seen or heard anything to convince me otherwise.

    Jason
     

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