(NFR) Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquatic C...

Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by ChrisC, Mar 24, 2004.

  1. Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquatic C...

    I question how a study like that can accurately be measured other than by personal perceptions. Do you know what kind of data they used to determine that study?
    I'm very curious to know and I think I'd still take our government over many others even at #18 on the list. We have a lot of personal freedoms in my opinion.

    As for the Bush administration, what about the alternative administration under JFKerry? I've haven't heard about one thing that he actually stands for except that Bush is the big bad wolf. At least Bush does stand for something and he is protecting our country as he sees fit. From my perspective, the Bush administration recognizes problems and wants to move ahead by solving them rather than getting into an ugly mudslinging battle. Like I said before, we are choosing between the lesser of two evils and I believe the lesser evil is Bush.

  2. Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquatic C...

    Fortuna, Kalm, Skinny, and any others wishing to continue this discussion,
    Hey I propose that instead of wasting space talking about politics on a fly fishing forum, we do it via email instead. If you have another reply to something I said, I'd be happy to respond via email, but I don't think I will be posting any more replies for the sake of keeping this forum what it's supposed to be about: flyfishing. Sorry for taking it so off track.


  3. Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquatic C...

    I agree with most of what you said politically and definitely agree with keeping this forum about flyfishing.I have stayed out of this one because I found out that arguing politics takes the fun out of participating on this board.Let's stick to fishing related posts.
  4. Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquat...

    chucka, until you have seen dreamin, dont make bullsh!t statements about him. ive know him for the time since he moved here from cali, and saying he fishs a 500 dollar sage rod makes you look like a baffoon...for the books though, he does not have a 40 dollar rainshadow. its a 80 dollar rainshadow. 2nd cheepest pontoon on the market. think before you speak. why do i say these things? im in the same boat dramin is, only i dont have a pontoon, i have a 75 dollar floattube. 40 dollar rainshadow. i dont even own my own computer. you need to just think before you speak. no offense to you meant or intended in any way, but you yourself admitted to having these things, which makes you better off than us. maybe you should look in our shoes before you bitch about how bad you have it?
  5. Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquat...

    This post could not be more about fishing. The forrest controls the water; the water controls the fish. The fish control the fishing. Can we not make these mental jumps?
    Does conservation have no place on this board? This post is about the easing of rules regarding our eco-systems. Such easing, read destruction of many valuable, very hard fought for rules, will just be more nails in the coffin called fishing. We don't care about this??
    Why are some of us hostile to political discussions? Are we weak in our dealing with them? Politics are simply the way in which we choose to deal with our problems. Are we not to deal with problems of fishing on this site?
    How hard is it to leave this thread and go to another one? Why don't those who object simply go and do that? Why demand that the thread be closed? Why are we always trying to shut people up?

    Fortuna: Much as I admire your mature and reasoned style of thinking, it is not without fault in my view. This Cain thing. We could never put him on the ticket.
    He is and always will be a member of the right wing. While he does show many liberal tendancies, he is conservative to the core. We must always have at least two parties so that voters have a resonable choice. You are blurring the differences such that there would be no choice offered. Accountability would suffer.

    Sometimes these political discussions do generate s a certain amount of heat in the kitchen. I think it was Adali Stevenson who remarked that if you couldn't stand the heat in the kitchen, then get out of it.

    I applaud this fine post. It is about conservation. Any fishing site that does not deal with this issue is a joke.

    Bob, the Bring It On.
  6. Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquat...

    And yet Bob, sometimes things are better left to be dealt with personally. Talking about conservation is great, but we aren't making much headway here because we each have our own agenda. I'll admit, I have my mind made up about a lot of stuff and it's not easy to change it. Sometimes I think these discussions become so much like "a pissing match" as one person put it, but others can be very good and informative. Sometimes we need to control the fire before it gets out of control, or simply isolate it. I think posts like this often only go so far before they stop being effective and end up turning people against each other rather than working on solving a problem.

  7. Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquat...


    Much as I admire your Christian fervor, it does scare me just a bit and I think we need to be cautious when this issue is addressed. It is not one nation under Jesus as some would definitely like it to be. I hope you don't go there Paddy because we live in a world that is getting a bellyful of religious fervor.
    A religion (Islam) that is interpreted as being out to kill non-believers is bunk to me (a non-believer). I should say also that Christians who interpret their belief system should be imposed on the non-Christians of our country is also bunk.
    WE must let Muslims worship.
    We must let Christians worship.
    But please leave the the rest of us to think and worship as we believe. Don't shove your stuff down our throats.
    Bob, the Freedom of religion believer and the freedom from religions believer as well.:thumb
  8. Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquat...

    Another editorial in the Wall Street Journal (which I read regularly to balance out my daily dose of NPR) made an amusing point about supposedly 'open mided' voters who have no intention of voting for the other side, no matter how much lip service they pay to 'voting for the man'.

    It's thesis: 40% of Americans would vote Republican, even if the party's candidate was Ivan the Terrible. Another 40% would vote Democratic even if the party nominated Attila the Hun. The remaining 20% are undecided and will remain that way until two things happen first: the summer Olympics have concluded; and the World Series is over.
  9. Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquat...

    New River Mike

    I really, really tried not to add anything further to this post, but I'm surprised we're still talking about whether politics is fit discussion for this board, and how some of these discussions keep getting personal.

    First, I understand that someone raised the idea on another post that we just shouldn't let this kind of thing in the Forum. As Chris reminsed us, we've had this discussion before and the NFR idea seems to be one way that "non-fishing" topics can be flagged.

    How and when someone labels a topic as NFR is still a judgment call.

    I do understand that some people want to use this as a fly-fishing site, period. That's where I began; that's how I found this site in the first place. Those people have every right to use this site for that purpose, and for those people, there's still nothing compulsory about reading every post on this site. If you don't want to read something, you don't have to. And if you read something that you don't like, don't agree with, etc., you STILL have a choice - you can respond or you can NOT respond.

    Even if you do respond, there's yet ANOTHER choice. You can choose to not take the remarks or comments of others personally, and if others cross that line, you can choose not to respond in kind.

    I know, that's a hard one. God knows, there's nothing about today's world that encourges or rewards collaboration over conflict. We're overrun by people who divide the world into good guys and bad guys, when in reality, about 99% of everyone is just trying to meet their needs and those of their families as best they can.

    We all hear a lot today about "political correctness." If this board becomes a place where some conversations are off limits because some individuals can't keep from taking it and making it personal, then in my opinion, we'll all lose, and that's political correctness if I ever heard it. I think we're better than that.

    IMO, we need to make responsibility more personal. Please, let's all take responsibility for our own behavior and feelings, and quit blaming certain topics or individuals for making us feel bad.

    I value this site for the cameraderie, information, ideas, and even for the lively and sometimes heated exchange of opinions and values. I think it's freedom at its best, and it's best nurtured by each of us taking some responsibility for keeping it alive and healthy.

    My two coins...

  10. Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquat...

    Setting aside the flip remarks about the series and so forth, it really doesn't matter too much about what man represents the party. It is the the principles of the party, the issues, the past achievement or lack thereof that is really at issue when you vote.
    The Republicans are extrememly cleaver in their PR (they would have to be to get away with all the stuff they pull).
    And some years ago, they came up with this, "Its the Man, Not the Party." Brilliant. Now they could duck all responsibility for a rotten economy, tax cuts for the wealthy, axing the environment, thwarting social progress at every turn, and run some sort of Hollywood
    type or cowboy whatever and hope to get elected. It was straight teeth that really mattered, not what you stood for or represented. Only the really stupid would hold a political party accountable, they argued, for what had happened during its tenure.

    So I don't care if it's Ivan the Terrible. I'll vote for him if he supports those principles that I hold near and dear to my heart. And too hell with any pretty boy who is lying through his teeth about trying to help the country and being "for the people."

    Bob, the Attila was actually a good man, Kent. He was just caught for being a mass murderer is all.:rolleyes
  11. Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquat...

    Good Point nvr4mike.I didn't look at it that way.You made me rethink my post.
    Nice to hear from you
  12. Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquat...

    Sorry if I made it sound like I wanted this board to be all PC and everthing. You are right, we should be able to discuss a whole variety of topics from fly fishing to what kind of bread goes best with swiss cheese. It is truly feedom at its best.

  13. Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquat...


    Some really nice thoughts on your part. You posted just seconds ahead of my post and I never saw it until it was too late. Looks as if I completely ignored your points but this is not the case. And so I post here a bit in response.

    Being a teacher, I tried to make my classes thrive on free speech and controversy. No idea was ever out of order within the limits of good taste and civility of course. We had some beauties... I still remember many.
    And so to here on this site: why ban anything unless it is in extrememly poor taste or just plain mean-spirited?
    Go to another post. How hard is that to do?

    Being a full time paranoid, I always think there is another agenda with those who would ban things. They can't argue well and have no real facts of their own. They hope to drive opposition to their views into the ground by creating some sort of "ban rule." Often, it is the philosophy of "rules or government are bad" that generates a rule banning other philosophies which might take exception.

    Go on ya Mike! Pleasure to have had lunch with you. I should have paid attention more closely.

    Bob, the Ban all those Ban dudes!:p
  14. Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquat...

    Some,not all,environmental groups have lied and continue to lie to achieve their goals.There are examples that I won't bore you with.It does make it harder to know which ones are legitimate and which are just fanatics.One group has recently identified over 200 types of soil that they claim are endangered and are preparing a lawsuit to stop all development that would disturb or cover any of these soils.Rediculous?You bet.It is clowns like this,that get the press,that damage all environmental endeavors.Even some of us conservatives are for the environment,but in a reasonable and responsible manner as I'm sure many liberals are also.
  15. Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquat...

    Just FYI:

    >>>But Democrats, it turns out, are much better for the stock market than Republicans. Slate ran the numbers and found that since 1900, Democratic presidents have produced a 12.3 percent annual total return on the S&P 500, but Republicans only an 8 percent return. In 2000, the Stock Trader's Almanac, which slices and dices Wall Street performance figures like baseball stats, came up with nearly the same numbers (13.4 percent versus 8.1 percent) by measuring Dow price appreciation. (Most of the 20th century's bear markets, incidentally, have been Republican bear markets: the Crash of '29, the early '70s oil shock, the '87 correction, and the current stall occurred under GOP presidents.)

    According to almanac editor Jeffrey Hirsch, the presidential party figures are among the most significant he's found. If the stock market were random, we'd expect such a result only one-quarter of the time. "I don't know why people are convinced Republicans are good for the stock market," Hirsch says.

    Nor does having a Republican Congress help the market. A Democratic Senate showed returns of 10.5 percent (versus 9.4 percent for a GOP upper chamber), and a Democratic House returned 10.9 percent versus 8.1 percent for the Republicans.

    Republicans are no doubt muttering that that's just the stock market, not the whole economy. But real GDP growth follows the same pattern. Since 1930 (the first year decent data is available), GDP growth was 5.4 percent for Democratic presidents and 1.6 percent for Republicans. >>>

    What is it, exactly, that conservative administrations are good at, anyway? Certainly not the economy, not the environment, not for the midle class... could it be, for a few rich people?! No.... couldn't be.
  16. Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquat...

    >What is it, exactly, that conservative administrations
    >are good at, anyway?

    Tax cuts for the rich, strong defense, and small government, Oops, scratch that last one. Compassionate conservatism my ass :-D
  17. Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquat...

    You guys crack me up. As you know, I have been whinning about being very tired with this whole mess and I just want to give up and try to forget it all, and then I think: "Wait! You can't do that! That's what X is doing. Get your ass back in there."
    It cheers me to nno end to know that there are some yound out there who have not given and they probably never will.
    Really nice work with some facts there, Nailknot.
    Fortuna, I am still booming you and Kalm for President.
    Bob, the I am having a hard time getting behind this guy of ours. I guess I'm like all the others, anybody but Bush. Damn, I would have loved the good doctor but he was too real, even had some emotion. I must have been crazy.x(
  18. Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquat...

    He's been good for lowering the strength of the american dollar, spreading our defenses too thinly, isolating america from the rest of the world, creating a huge budget deficit and then claiming a strong econonmy, making it unsafe for americans to travel, invading countries that have WMD's, no wrong again, I mean those countries linked to Al Queda, no, wrong again, I mean those that countries that have brutal dictators that the U.S. put in power that have oil, preventing Condoleza Rice from testifying in public under oath at the 9/11 meetings held this week, creating catch phrases like "The Healthy Forest Initiative" and "No Child Left Behind" and making the general public believe that they are good programs...

    Steve Buckner
  19. Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquat...

    I should come out of retirement and go to work for Bush.
    Here's just the tip of the iceberg:

    1. Global Freezing Adjustments Act. Drag an iceberg to New York City by sumberged nuclear submarine and claim global warming is really now global freezing. Payoff big industry by crapcaning all emission controls.

    2. Fishermen's Restitution Act. Calls for draining all the rivers into phony farmlands. Pays off all the phony farmers and their wnnabees.

    3. Wetlands Restoration Program. Makes huge business, no interest, loans available to pave over any habitat that might be remaining for marsh animals including salmon smolt. Settles developers contributions.

    4. Clean Forest Act. Allows loggers to wipe the forests completely clean including all fish and wildlife.
    We'll boom it as the final solution for forest fires. Pays off the lumber industries' millions of dollars contributed.

    5. Mind Those Mines Initiative. Gives subsidies to mining companies to dig up every last rock in the country to look for national defense minerals and, oh, anything else that might be there. Mining contributions paid off.

    6. Alaska for the Future Program. Permits drilling and forestry in any part of Alaska in order to improve the Alsakan ecomony, the American economy and to assist oil shipping. Goes a long way to move Alaska into the 21st Century.

    7. Jobs for Everyone. Kicks all non-native born nationals out of the country. Their jobs, like pullling weeds in the sun with 105 degree plus temperature in the Sacramento Valley, will be made available on a first come, first served basis. Refusals to take one of these jobs will result in termination of benefits.

    8. Engineers Adjustment Act. Forces anyone with any computer skills to go door to door looking for work for at least 40 hours per week before any type of benefit is made available. Does not pay off anyone. It's just for meaness.

    9. Food Stamp Sunset Program and Job Iniative Act. Ends food stamp program, forcing either a job or hunger. Government does not enter the picture, fearing big government. Makes xenophobes happy.

    10. Omnibus Act. Anything mean-spirited will be enacted. Bonuses for best ideas.

    Bob, the I could of made a million in politics. :rofl

    Damn, I almost forgot: education. This is after all the "Education President."

    11. Public Schools Relief Program:
    Relieves public schools of any funding whatsoever. Charter schools may be chartered by anyone who can write a charter. No, check that, charters given out even if the ability to write one is not evident. Terrorist schools given priority as well as racist, fanatical fundamentalists of any persuaion. Bonus for religious schools. etc.
  20. Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquat...

    Bob, Bob, Bob...John Ashcroft has read your suggestions and called for an early morning with "the boss" about some new ideas/initiatives...we'll just know that it was said first here...

    Steve Buckner

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