NFR: Demise of Livestock killing Cougar

Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by Itchy Dog, Apr 19, 2008.

  1. Jon Borcherding

    Jon Borcherding New Member

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    Actually your first statement is a fine example of pointless semantics because unless the attacking animal in question is actually listed as endangered or threatened under the ESA I don't believe that the feds provide compensation. Feel free to correct me if I am mistaken in believing this. Perhaps soemone with ranching experience could chime in and clear up this little dispute.

    As for your brave llamas, I agree, a cougar would probably ignore them and just kill the sheep just as they might ignore a healthy bull elk and take out a calf.

    You might want to look deeper into your other theories regarding cougars and why they run from dogs. Some of them are killing and eating dogs now that they are not pursued by hounds in the same manner that was common before the hound hunting ban. Speaking of which, it would appear that the ban on hound hunting and subsequent attempts at management of the cougar population have done more damage than good to the cougar population. How do you feel about that?

    JonB
     
  2. junebug41

    junebug41 Junior Dave Monti fan

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    Ah, Jon. What an honor to be the recipient of the smugly superior tone I've marveled at so many times. I'm well aware of your need to get in the final, mocking word -- and I'm much more interested in the issue of human management of apex predators than I am in trading zingers with you -- so I'll go ahead and let this lie after this (and after you get in your last shot, of course).

    As I'm pretty sure I already stated, I don't have any problems with a sustainable hunt, and don't have any strong feelings about the methods used in said hunt.

    I believe you're mistaken about the compensation issue. You believe I'm mistaken. I'm happy to leave it at that. A news story out of Okanogan, involving a cat-killed horse, covered this in some detail a few years back.

    It's pretty clear that I'm not the one who needs to brush up on my knowledge of lions (or llamas, for that matter). Cougars killing dogs when opportunity and advantage are present is hardly a new phenomenon caused by the lack of hound-hunts.

     
  3. Caddis Skater

    Caddis Skater Member

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    My thoughts exactly. !!!!!!!!!! iagreeiagree

    The next kill might have been the lady when she is out
    feeding her goats.
     
  4. FLGator

    FLGator Member

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    What a beautiful cougar! Really hoping the state of WA opens cougar hunting again throughout the state as a management tool to minimize this type of event. However, as urban sprawl continues this type of encounter is going to be more common.

    I whole heartedly endorse quality game management practices!

    P.S. For those who have never experienced trailing behind a pack of hounds hot on a cat track I can assure you, it is one of the most physically demanding challenges you will face pursuing big game.
     
  5. K2

    K2 New Member

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    Sometimes I think my dog would lead the cat to me, point out my weaknesses and then distract me long enough so it could get a good pounce in. :beer1:
     
  6. Jon Borcherding

    Jon Borcherding New Member

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    I can appreciate your interest in apex predators but it would appear you have a certain flair for "trading zingers" also. I'm especially impressed by the way you slammed the door with that "last shot" comment and I'm only too happy to oblige. :rofl:

    I could be wrong. I frequently am. Feel free to correct me.

    My point is that cougars are not displaying the same fear of humans or dogs that we used to expect from them. I am suggesting that this might have something to do with the fact that they are no longer pursued by humans with dogs.

    Two articles posted earlier in this thread seem to indicate that the current form of cougar management is causing chaos in cougar populations by culling trophy animals. If true, this is not helping matters any.

    This article from a Canadian paper suggests that increasing deer populations lead to increasing predator populations.

    I couldn't find anything about llamas killing cougars but I did find this.

    In closing I would like to thank you very much for giving me the last word. Without this advantage I'm sure it would have been difficult, if not impossible, to make any headway against your brilliant command of the fine art of "trading zingers". :p

    JonB
     
  7. Coach Duff

    Coach Duff Banned or Parked

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    As soon as any big predator learns by trial and error that there is a dinner bell close by porch lights, its a threat not only to the livestock (which mean a hell of a lot to some folks,) but to local residents. Everyone can play Marlon Perkins or liberal animal rights activist and that's fine. I love animals deeply. I do not however have a problem with slamming a rifle round into that cat's front shoulder or chest and killing it verses taking my child or children on an ambulance ride trying to hold their arm on their little body as they bleed to death and thinking about 25 years of plastic surgery (if they make it). That cat as beautiful as it was, had to go. They are supreme predators and attack targets of opportunity. This "kittie" was getting bolder and bolder. And cudos to the Gamie who put it down with one shot. He should be smiling. That's his job and he did it well. Tough to lose any animal that majestic, but I'm glad for those folks it was done right. Coach
     
  8. Steve Buckner

    Steve Buckner Mother Nature's Son

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    "Whenever I see a photograph of some sportsman grinning over his kill, I am always impressed by the striking moral and aesthetic superiority of the dead animal to the live one." Edward Abbey
     
  9. pilchuck steelie

    pilchuck steelie New Member

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    Hope this link works, some here will enjoy this:

    http://www.refugeforums.com/refuge/showthread.php?t=606430

    Interesting comments, I just don't understand why some of you fish at all. You seemingly take lightly the mortality rate of the fish you catch and release and the lives of the animals/birds that are used to make the flies you fish with. Like somone said, you're involved in a bloodsport, don't forget that.
     
  10. djzaro

    djzaro New Member

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    gone, bs
    I hope all of you understand that hunters are the tools that wdfw uses to regulate populations of wildlife. Hunters are not given the right to hunt animals, they are used by the state to keep populations where they seem fit, which is the right way to do. So if you disagree with hunters, you disagree with keeping the populations in check. Yes they don't always get it right, as we have seen with fish but they do their best. If a species gets over populated the limits go up, low population the limit gos down or not allowed. So if you see a increase in population of a wild animal, it is likely because of a regulation change. The law that outlawed hunting with dogs and traps was the worst thing I have seen in a while and we are seeing the results now and will continue to. That is why they allow it on a case be case standard... they realized what a mistake it was. DON'T LIMIT THE METHOD... LIMIT THE PERMITS.
     
  11. HauntedByWaters

    HauntedByWaters Active Member

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    Hey I wasn't looking down!

    I just mean running through the woods with a pack of dogs chasing a cougar all day sounds rediculous.

    Is it not?

    It may be fun and exciting but still, sounds like a pretty crazy operation.

    I agree we fly fishermen can be rediculous as well!

    This thread has certainly elightened me about cougar hunting and the various fascets of the game but I still think I will pass.

    As a fisherman, I would never thumb my nose at a hunter......that is just bullocks! :eek:




    The reason you get anti-hunters from the city is the same reason you NEVER get vegans from the country; it is because people who get their meals in nice neat packages don't see the "murder" and think their way is more humane.

    Obviously, predator and prey is a natural phenom., as natural as anything else.

    Ironically, hunting is probably more natural in most cases than the super market! And more sustainable!
     
  12. cuponoodle breakfast

    cuponoodle breakfast Active Member

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    I don't think so. Are you drawing this conclusion based on hound hunters you've known, or just stating your opinion on something you know nothing about?
     
  13. HauntedByWaters

    HauntedByWaters Active Member

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    It is something I know nothing about.

    I am on your side, believe me, I just think hunting with hounds sounds like a crazy time as in "skydiving is rediculous!" That is how I meant it.

    I guess rediculous is one of those weird words that young folks use wrongly, my peers and I it doesn't mean "deserving of ridicule", it means "outlandishly exciting; over the top".
     
  14. dryflylarry

    dryflylarry "Chasing Riseforms"

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    For your hunting pleasure:

    DELISTING OF WOLF 253M:
     
  15. cuponoodle breakfast

    cuponoodle breakfast Active Member

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    :thumb:
    I've never hunted behind hounds, but hearing the stories of guys who have is enough for me to know it's not a walk in the park. Chasing dogs wherever they go, long days turning into late nights, missing work to go back and find dogs from the previous day, it would make for one hell of an exciting time...and a lot of work. I'd love to go through the woods following the echo of a dog team in pursuit.
     
  16. Coach Duff

    Coach Duff Banned or Parked

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    I just don't see the striking moral and aesthetic superiority of my 4 year old daughter as a 160 pound cougar stands proudly over her after he just jumped on her from behind, while she was playing in the yard and ripped her throat out. I see a dead future and an end of many dreams for my family and her. Maybe those liberal predictable bullshit quotes aren't always seeped in common sense and reality, when the tables are turned and you actually have to live the horror and fear of watching Mother Nature let one of her supreme killers and predators loose on your, property livestock or babies. Big cats are graceful, beautiful and touch the soul, but reality and romantic notions don't always mix well in that kill or be killed world we call Mother Nature. There is an orginization for people that put animals ahead of common sense and humans and they are called PETA. By the way, they are trying to ban all fishing also. Bloodsports are just that, bloodsports. Ours involves driving a sharpened spike (fly) into a fish's skull and then letting him run in fear until he is exhausted. Then we revive him, let him go and try to do it to him again! Far more "sporting" and ethical than hunting with hounds, or hunting in general.:rolleyes: Coach
     
  17. Jon Borcherding

    Jon Borcherding New Member

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    This particular piece of emotional anthropomorphism probably belongs in the wolf thread.
    This thread is about the demise of a livestock killing cougar.

    JonB
     
  18. HauntedByWaters

    HauntedByWaters Active Member

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    In your link another big word is mentioned, anthropomorphophobia:

    "It is also probably true that humans have a natural tendency to deny common traits with other species, most particularly apes, feeling that humans are unique and "special."...."

    I would say that is equally true. Neither word is really an argument for or against the DELISTING OF WOLF 253M.
     
  19. Brett Angel

    Brett Angel Member

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    Jon, I believe you're suffering from anthropomorphophobia...lol. Semantics and opinions my friend.
     
  20. HauntedByWaters

    HauntedByWaters Active Member

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    LOL sounds pretty funny doesn't it?

    That should be the new PETA motto, "Fighting Anthropomorphobia One Republican Redneck At A Time!"
     

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