NFR: Demise of Livestock killing Cougar

Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by Itchy Dog, Apr 19, 2008.

  1. Jon Borcherding

    Jon Borcherding New Member

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    Agreed.
    And the delisting of wolf 253M is not an argument for or against the killing of a cougar with a record of killing livestock.
    Apples and oranges, another feeble attempt to paint all hunters with a broad brush.
    Some "fishermen" enjoy snagging chums and killing them for no reason.
    How does that reflect on you as fisherman?

    JonB
     
  2. Brett Angel

    Brett Angel Member

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    Jon, I don't remember anywhere in the video did it say ALL HUNTERS ARE BAD. In fact, it seemed very specific to the lawful killing of wolves in Wyoming for the sole purpose of killing.

    Seems like you're looking to start an arguement. Are you a lawyer with some downtime?

    -Brett
     
  3. Jon Borcherding

    Jon Borcherding New Member

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    As a matter of fact, as I am reading this my tongue is probing the sharp teeth behind my front teeth, "canines" or "Incisors" I believe they are called. They remind me that I have much in common with other predators and that I am a participant in nature not simply an observer.
    I have no idea how you have arrived at your dime store diagnosis. No matter. This isn't really about me. It's just easier for you to take a swipe at my character than to form a cogent argument of your own.

    JonB
     
  4. Jon Borcherding

    Jon Borcherding New Member

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    I didn't post the video. I responded to the post, pointing out that this thread was about a cougar that got killed for killing livestock.
    As for your lawyer comment, this thread is not about me or my professional life. It's about a cougar that got killed for killing livestock.

    JonB
     
  5. Steve Buckner

    Steve Buckner Mother Nature's Son

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    Have no fear coach, your daughter wasn't anywhere near the event. Thank god she's safe! You've done the right thing by moving to an island where there aren't any cougars - except possibly at the zoo. Hope you're able to get caught up on all of the sleep you lost last night worrying about "Lions and tigers and bears...oh my!"

    That said, it sounds like you have a real problem with anybody who disagrees with your authoritarian position. And rather than debate your position, you chose to make it personal...so game on! But your argument is weak and the odds of your daughter or any human being attacked by a cougar are highly improbable - even hear in north america! There's a much higher risk to your daughter being hurt/raped/killed by those of your own species (or that of your football team, for that matter) than by a cougar :rolleyes:. And the further mankind spreads into what was once wilderness, one of two things occur. The first would be that mankind loses a few to "nature", and/or the second being that we turn nature into Disneyland.

    And to your other point, there are those who put humans before all other creatures, and they're causing the demise of our last wild places and last wild creatures. God forbid we should lose a goat or a sheep, or worse yet, a couple of head of cattle to predators (which by the way, are often run on public land). Be sure to buy lots of red meat...:D

    I was in Alaska one time when some testosterone laden, gun toating red-necked dipshit killed a black bear because he was so afraid for his young daughter. The bear was 75 yards away, and walking at a leisurely pace -and accross a river. But this "man" decided to show his remarkable bravery and killed the bear. He was turned in by about 20 other people who witnessed this event.

    But for being such an ass and suggesting that protecting nature is somehow PETA oriented, I thought I'd post one more quote from good ol' Edward Abbey for ya' :p

    "Football is a game for trained apes. That, in fact, is what most of the players are--retarded gorillas wearing helmets and uniforms. The only thing more debased is the surrounding mob of drunken monkeys howling the gorillas on." Edward Abbey :rofl:

     
  6. prosopium

    prosopium Member

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    its not really a big word, just long. pretty common word actually.

    that video is garbage, useless propaganda for people who dont have a clue to join some peta-like group to give money to "protect" wolves. doesnt belong on this thread as stated.

    20 bucks says that guy doesnt even live in the tri-state recovery area and if he does its probably in jackson.
     
  7. HauntedByWaters

    HauntedByWaters Active Member

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    Geee thanks.
     
  8. Jon Borcherding

    Jon Borcherding New Member

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    Edward Abbey sounds like a great guy to have as a hero.


    JonB
     
  9. Brett Angel

    Brett Angel Member

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    Your misuse of the word "anthropomorphism" was funny too me...sorry if I offended you. As for your career, I have no idea what you do for a living...it was a joke...you know lawyers like to argue.

     
  10. Mike McCluskey

    Mike McCluskey Macker of the Clan Campbell

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    "Football is a game for trained apes. That, in fact, is what most of the players are--retarded gorillas wearing helmets and uniforms. The only thing more debased is the surrounding mob of drunken monkeys howling the gorillas on." Edward Abbey

    I find this statement extremely offensive. Gorillas show a high degree of intelligence and an extreme tendency towards proper social behavior within their overall society. Given this, I find that comparing them to football players is wrong.

    /tongue in cheek mode
     
  11. Jon Borcherding

    Jon Borcherding New Member

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    OK, I'll give it one more shot.

    Anthropomorphism:
    (an-thruh-puh-mawr-fiz-uhm) The attributing of human characteristics and purposes to inanimate objects, animals, plants, or other natural phenomena, or to God. To describe a rushing river as “angry” is to anthropomorphize it.

    My contention was that the video posted earlier in this thread was a good example of anthropomorphism. The author seems bent upon ascribing human characteristics to to wolf #253M.
    This is my opinion. I don't expect you to agree with me.
    Would you mind pointing out where you believe that I misused the word "anthropomorphism"?

    JonB
     
  12. Steve Buckner

    Steve Buckner Mother Nature's Son

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    Jon,
    You're my hero - I love realtors(especially those that golf)! Don't let anybody else tell you differently. Are you showing signs of cognitive dissonance?

    But back to Edward Abbey, have you ever read any of his stuff or did you just jump straight into that link? I suspect the latter...Nonetheless, he has had a significantly positive effect on opening peoples minds to the fact that our wild places are diminishing at the hands of those who want to further develope the land...people like you. It's no wonder that you would have an issue with someone like that...

    If you'd like to educate yourself, here is a fuller picture of what this guy was about (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Abbey) - protecting what's left of our wild places...and as much as I think you're a hero for selling houses, I think my idealogies are probably much more aligned with his...hope that's ok.

    On a friendly note, I hope your next trip to the Skookumchuck goes well...god knows that's dangerous country! I've heard rumors of lots of cougar there, and they've been known to kill a sheep or a goat...not country for anyone but a brave soul like yourself, and don't be surprised if you get roused by a methhead...
     
  13. Brett Angel

    Brett Angel Member

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    Jon,

    I went back and listened to the video and I'm still not hearing the human-specific characteristics applied to the wolf. The narrator is cheesy and does use this incident to get his singluar point of view across, but I'm not hearing the "humanizing" of the wolf.

    Per my tag on my earlier post...semantics and opinions.

    Steve, "The Monkey Wrench Gang" is a great book and worthy of a read. I'll have to check into Edward Abbey's other work. Thanks for the info Steve.

    Apologies for straying WAY off subject and wasting others time with this matter.
     
  14. HauntedByWaters

    HauntedByWaters Active Member

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    I don't know dude. I am not against hunting at all.

    I just thought it was lame that you linked to a word that everybody here knows as if a word proves anything beyond a doubt.

    You accuse him of anthropomorphism.

    I accuse you of anthropomorphobia.

    That is all.
     
  15. Jon Borcherding

    Jon Borcherding New Member

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    Steve, I'm flattered that you would take the time to research my occupation. Have you conducted a background check on me also?
    There seems to be a pattern here. When someone challenges the well meaning drivel of animal rights activists, rather than defend their ideology with a coherent argument they resort to attacking the character of the person who challenges their cherished beliefs.
    You're not the first poster to take that line in this thread but, you should be elligible for some kind of prize for the way that you smeared the Coach with your stereotyping nonsense.
    And why do you suspect that I just "jumped straight into that link"?
    Could it be that you have some preconceived notion of who I am based soley on the fact that I don't worship at the altar of direct action environmentalism? You seem to be offended that you get lumped in with the likes of PETA but your ideologies are, by your own admission, aligned with the man credited for inspiring the cult of direct action environmentalism. Personally, I detest such groups becaues they enjoy all the benefits of living in a democracy while they go outside that framework to further their causes with acts of sabotage.

    JonB
     
  16. Steve Buckner

    Steve Buckner Mother Nature's Son

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    Actually Jon, I'd say the smearing (at least as it concerns me) started in this thread with the direct reference from coachduff at me, which was then followed by your statements. which by the way, are kind of flattering - I do admire what Edward Abbey wrote and what his values were! And I'm still betting that you haven't read any of his books so why judge him? But back to topic, remember Jon, we've never met - so as long as you don't go inferring that you know something about me, I'll stop inferring I know something about you.

    Secondly, and for historical reference, the first time we interacted you suggested "cognitive dissonance" as your opening line toward me. Insulting isn't it? As you'll recall, this was your first attempt to discredit what I had to say on the topic at that time with an inference that "Steve's not very bright". Kind of rude behavior IMHO. So I'd submit, that this pattern of character assasination vs. debating the topic has been displayed by you repeatedly in this thread between you and others, directed from you at me next, as well as in the first thread where we "met".

    So, a word to the wise, if you want to play fair, then do so - but if you start with the character assasinations, it's game on.;) If you have the ability to stick with the debate, then do so. Sound fair enough?
     
  17. constructeur

    constructeur Active Member

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    this last page has me :rofl::rofl:

    Desert Solitaire- one of the best books I've read :thumb:
     
  18. Jon Borcherding

    Jon Borcherding New Member

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    Steve,
    All I know about you is what I've read here. You claim that your ideologies are aligned with the man who is credited with inspiring direct action environmentalism. Direct action environmentalism is an ideology well known for acts of arson, sabotage and vandalism committed by adherents to this form of activism. I am not engaging in character assasination. I'm simply pointing out facts.
    I'd also like to remind you that the Coach responded to your Edward Abbey quote
    I don't see how his response can be construed as a personal affront to you.
    As for the cognitive dissonance remark, i have only a vague recolection of that remark. Let's take a look:

    Originally posted by Steve:

    Steve's old quote:
    Originally posted by me:
    As you can plainly see I was stating that I was experiencing cognitive dissonance from reading your quotes. That's my own way of saying that I think you contradicted yourself. In no way did this exchange impugn your character, or intelligence.

    Again, is it entirely impossible to challenge your statements without being accused of character assasination?

    Where is the offending "character assasination", Steve?

    JonB
     
  19. Jon Borcherding

    Jon Borcherding New Member

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    Brett, I went back and listened too. In addition to the general tone of the narration which is as laden with as much pathetic sympathy as a parents eulogy for a lost child, I noticed these shining examples of anthropomorphism:

    JonB
     
  20. Steve Buckner

    Steve Buckner Mother Nature's Son

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    Jon, the problem is that you're choosing which "facts" to point out, and which of them to associate with me rather than debating the topic. As an example, suggesting that my ideologies are exactly aligned with Direct Environmentalism, sabotage, and vandalism might be interpreted as character assasination. Hmmm....Glad to see you're not heading down that road. You had me worried for a minute...

    Oh, and about that cognitive dissonance thing - yeah, what you said was insulting. Have you ever walked into a bar, and walked up to a person you've never met and said "Hey F.U.?" That approach doesn't usually go over so well. The same kind of thing happened in our first "meeting". Let me remind you once more that my signature at the time had nothing to do with the topic of debate, which I pointed out at the time very clearly. Do you want to talk about that discussion some more, or would you like to talk about the topic in this thread? And by the way, my signature now has nothing to do with the death of the cougar. Are you suggesting cognitive disssonance on this thread as well? You'd be using the same logic...

    Let me know,
    sb
     

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