NFR: HB3359 seeks to serialize handgun ammo

Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by Roper, Feb 13, 2008.

  1. Josh dead in the water

    Posts: 2,936
    NW Washington
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    So would it be equally stupid if it were a national law? Despite my earlier ribbing of Roper, I'm asking a serious question here.

    I have no idea if an honest working law enforcement agent would say "hell no, this wouldn't help us at all" or "Yes, this would be a great piece of information in our arsenal". I know all I'm likely to get by asking this question is hot-air propaganda from both sides of the line. But that's how you learn, by asking.

    I tend to try and gather as much information on a subject as I can before I make up my mind one way or the other.
  2. alpinetrout Banned or Parked

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    It might make it worthwhile enough for domestic ammunition manufacturers to retool to be able to do the etching. It would most certainly drive up the prices as well. As for foreign manufacturers, who knows how many would go through the trouble. At any rate, there would still be billions of rounds produced around the world every year without any serial numbers that would most certainly make their way into the US one way or another. Look at the amount of drugs that make it into this country. Smuggling serial-free ammo wouldn't have nearly the monetary loss (both actual and future) to smugglers when caught and confiscated, pound for pound, as cocaine or heroin.

    Let's also not ignore the issue of theft. Once stolen without serial numbers being recorded at the dealer, the system is worthless. Even worse, if it were stolen from an end user without their knowledge and was subsequently used in a crime, an innocent victim could be linked to a crime they had nothing to do with. Along those same lines, it would be easy for a black market to develop around ammunition reported as lost or stolen by criminals who then resell the ammunition as part of a larger black market network.

    Meanwhile, there's still the the fact that ammunition is very low tech and reloading is very easy for most anyone to do. An etched number could easily be removed from a spent casing and reloaded with a serial-free bullet. At that point, the only way to tell if the round was "legal" or not would be to either fire it or dismantle it. There is no possible way to effectively enforce this system, which basically renders it an incredibly expensive bureaucratic waste of resources.
  3. Adam Taylor Member

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    Newtown, CT
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    If it solves even 1 murder or deters even 1 criminal is that not worth it?
  4. Jon Borcherding New Member

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    Tacoma, WA
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    OK, fair enough, here's my hot air propoganda.:)
    I know exactly what an "honest working law enforcement agent " would say because I have one in the family and I asked him.
    He said it was absolutely ridiculous, stating all the reasons that were given by alpine and others earlier in this thread.
    I would ask you to think about how govt. spends so much of OUR resources trying to correct problems that were initiated by govt.
    Now imagine that the serialized ammo law was passed and then a large black market for unmarked ammo developed. This then prompts govt. to enact a ban on posession of unmarked ammo.
    Now any collector who has old ammo is a criminal.
    Any hunter, shooter, reloader who has unmarked ammo is a criminal.
    Any 77 year old granny who has an old box of 30.06 that grandad left in his sock drawer is a criminal.
    Now, what do we do about muzzleloaders?
    What do we do about shotguns?
    As a person who has watched the erosion of the 2nd ammendment for decades I can tell you that the gun ban lobby works incrementaly with "common sense solutions" that always appear, on the surface, to be aimed at protecting the public. This kind of legislation is just that. It appears to be for public safety but, it's really about driving one more nail in the coffin of the RKBA.

    ctyazfan, the answer to your question is NO.

    JonB
  5. David Prutsman All men are equal before fish

    Posts: 322
    Woodland Park, Colorado
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    Exactly! Why bother with legislation which will have no impact on law abiding gun owners? If somone is going to rob a seven 11, I doubt they are concerned enough about gun laws to first register the ammunition. Legistaion such as this just tippy toes closer and closer to "that" line and if a stand is not made and a line not clearly drawn, precedent upon precedent will be set eventually leading to the amputation of our rights. Today it's coding ammunition, tomorrow it will be the sale of firearms with out a firing pin, c'mon now!

    I'm not apposed to gun legislation but some common sense is in order. I would much rather see legislation regarding firearm education. Perhaps, like other states, Washington should require proof of a safety course before a concealed lisence is issued. Who can argue with education and safety?

    David
  6. Jack Murphy Member

    Posts: 201
    East Wenatchee, WA
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    Nope. That's the thinking that leads to a nation with no personal privacy or rights.

    If it solves one murder to implant a GPS chip in your spine at birth so your movements could be tracked 24/7 to stop you from committing a murder would it be worth it?

    If it solves one murder to premit searches without a warrant of your home and business would it be worth it?

    If it solves one murder to require all people in the U.S. to provide DNA at birth would it be worth it?

    The slope can become very slippery in a hurry.
  7. Kevin J. Burnham Active Member

    Posts: 2,146
    Auburn,Wa.
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    Amen Brothers !!! Criminals are criminals . They don't give a shit about any laws.
  8. Salmo_g Active Member

    Posts: 7,472
    Your City ,State
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    I heard this morning that this bill was DOA at the legislature. Apparently the technology firm that has the means to serialize ammo is or intends to vette this potential legislation in 7 states, including WA. Just because technology makes it possible doesn't make it a good idea. Hopefully it's DOA in the other states as well.
  9. Jon Borcherding New Member

    Posts: 535
    Tacoma, WA
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    yup. died in committee.
    LOOK!!!! A DEAD HORSE!!!! LETS GO KICK THE SHIT OUT OF IT!!!!
    My Rep. says it'll be back next year. (surprise, surprise)

    JonB
  10. Jeremy Floyd fly fishing my way through life

    Posts: 2,558
    Quesnel, BC
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    Good for them.
  11. Citori Piscatorial Engineer

    Posts: 1,200
    Federal Way, WA
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    The volume of ammunition already in circulation, and reloading supplies already purchased say this is a non-starter, is absolutely without merit.

    It does, however, make good eyewash for a certain constituency...hmmm, this isn't an election year is it?
  12. Adam Taylor Member

    Posts: 138
    Newtown, CT
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    Well...I think we can all agree with this...

    Too many idiots own guns. If someone has a solution to that problem than please chime in. Without going into great detail I have been touched by firearms violence and would like to see something work. So Jon...I understand your sentiment but in our circumstance we never found the person...maybe a serial number would have helped...maybe not. If you are a law abiding citizen then I would think there is nothing to fear in a registration number a mandatory waiting period, etc.

    I do not think guns should be banned. Too many sportsmen and ethical participants in the shooting sports. But I do think there are too many weapons out on the streets.

    Getting off the soap box now and maybe we should just focus on enforcing the laws we have rather than adding new ones.
  13. Porter Active Member

    Posts: 6,414
    Kenmore, WA, USA.
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    Not if it implicates one innocent person to a crime they did not commit. Could be difficult to get your life back after that.
  14. alpinetrout Banned or Parked

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    That's an interesting perspective, however it's impossible to truly quantify. If a murder is solved by matching a bullet or shell casing to the person who was registered as the buyer AND shooter, that's great. The problem is that what if for that one solved murder, another person is murdered by someone (regardless of method) who is intent on stealing their legally obtained ammunition. Now it could be argued that the law caused the death of a person, albeit in a somewhat roundabout fashion. Which is worse; an unsolved murder or two murders (one of which may still be unsolved)? This is all hypothetical and oversimplified for sake of example, of course.
  15. Be Jofus G Banned or Parked

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    It's quite simple. I have a very effective solution. On the side of every box of ammo print the following in large bold type:

    Amunition Testing Procedure:

    1: Insert shell into chamber of gun

    2: Disengage safety.

    3: point muzzle at your reproductive organs and pull trigger


    It may take a generation or two but Darwin will weed out the idiots eventually. :thumb:
  16. Jeremy Floyd fly fishing my way through life

    Posts: 2,558
    Quesnel, BC
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    ^
    Do you have something against literate people?
  17. Be Jofus G Banned or Parked

    Posts: 2,051
    Washington
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    :rofl: Good point. There would probably have to be illustrations attached to those instructions.

    In addition to requesting the prior, I'm also going to write my representative and ask that the warning label on McDonalds coffee be changed from "Warning Contents Hot" to "For a Warm Fuzzy Feeling, Pour Contents Down Underpants"

    :rofl:
  18. Porter Active Member

    Posts: 6,414
    Kenmore, WA, USA.
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    Jeremy..... It will be called BeJofusism and replace Darwinism.
  19. Roper Idiot Savant

    Posts: 4,285
    Glenraven Ranch
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    Ok, how many of you read the entire text of the bill?

    Can anyone tell me how many alpha/numerics will be required to creat these "unique" serial numbers for all the ammunition that will be produced in just one year?
    Can anyone tell me how that number is gonna fit in a 22 long rifle round which can be used in a hand gun?
    Can anyone tell me the scientific testing to prove this is a viable process?
    Can anyone tell me why law abiding citizens need to be tracked in a database?
    Can anyone give me the return on investment factors invloved in this process?
    Can anyone precict the resulting cost to ammunition?
    Can anyone tell me where this is going to stop?

    I don't think there are any warm and fuzzy answers to any of this. I feel it's just another attempt to artificially raise the cost of ammo so that the only folks that can own it will be the rich and the criminal.

    And in the end it will never stop some individual from shooting someone. So it does nothing to protect anyone. You're foolish to believe otherwise...:rolleyes:

    Here's another fun goverment program, National Animal Identification System, it's a wet dream of the USDA to micro chip all cows, sheep, hogs, horses, llamas, etc. So any of you gentlemen farmers better get ready to register your animals...;)

    I wonder when people will get their microchips...? :confused:
  20. Porter Active Member

    Posts: 6,414
    Kenmore, WA, USA.
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    1984? Big Brother? So he was off by a few decades.