NFR: HB3359 seeks to serialize handgun ammo

Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by Roper, Feb 13, 2008.

  1. Jon Borcherding New Member

    Posts: 535
    Tacoma, WA
    Ratings: +0 / 0
    I would like to chime in with a great solution.
    Let's stop blaming inanimate objects for the wrongdoings committed by people.
    Let's hold people accountable for their criminal acts instead of blaming the gun or the knife.
    Let's teach our children about accountability instead of enabling dysfunctional behavior by labeling it with the latest psychobabble and throwing drugs at it.
    Let's teach them that there is a difference between right and wrong and that when they do wrong they will be held accountable.
    Let's put violent criminals in jail and keep them there instead of letting them out on technicalities or paroling them to make room for non violent offenders.

    A very dear friend of my family was murdered several years ago.
    She was raped, sodomized with a framing hammer, and then beaten to death with the same hammer. The name of the convicted murderer is Brian Lord. He is currently in prison and may be released early on a technicality or perhaps granted a new trial because he was allowed to take the stand in his first trial when he insisted on doing so.
    If he was released to your neighborhood, how long should your waiting period be before you can buy a gun?
    How much mandatory training should you be required to take before you can have a firearm to defend your family?
    I'm sure that, as a victim of violence, you understand that the role of the cops is to investigate crime that has already happened. By the time you call 911 and the cops get the dispatch and drive to your house it is usually too late for them to prevent a crime.
    Yes, there are idiots who own guns, and cars, and knives, and hammers.
    Another persepective is this: over 99% of all violent crime is committed by men. Would you agree that all the idiots be neutered?
    Maybe be jofus g has the right idea? :confused:

    Seriously, ctyazfan, it's not the guns that are the problem. We are raising our children to believe that they can, litteraly, get away with murder. The average kid today watches 5 hrs. of TV pr. day.
    What's the message? What's the message in the music? What's the message in the video games? Most of the pop culture I see reaffirms the message that you can get away with anything.
    In what area are kids taught that there are consequences for their actions?

    A little story:
    When I was a kid, about 10 years old, my Dad caught a me and few of my friends having a BB gun war. Dad sent the other kids home without their guns and then he told me to take my BB gun to the barn and he would be there in a few minutes.
    When Dad got to the barn he didn't say a word. He took my BB gun and layed it on a chopping block and handed me a splitting maul and told me to smash it. When I thought I was done he told me that I wasn't finished yet and he made me bash the thing for about 10 minutes.
    Then he told me to take it to my room and hang it on the wall until he told me I could take it down. Dad asked me, "do you know what you just did?" "uh huh", I replied, trying to hold back my tears.
    " No, I don't think you get it! You not only put those kids in danger but you put your whole family in danger because if you had hurt one of those little bastards their parents could have sued us until we were pennyless!"
    I guess some kids learn the hard way, some kids learn quick, and some kids never have a chance because no one wants the responsibility of teaching them anything.
    This is what it was like to grow up before paintball was a sport.
    Sorry for the ramble.

    JonB
  2. Richard Olmstead BigDog

    Posts: 2,495
    Seattle, WA
    Ratings: +792 / 0
    Do you have any idea how many databases you already are tracked in? And I'm assuming you are 'law abiding!' :cool:

    D
  3. Roper Idiot Savant

    Posts: 4,317
    Glenraven Ranch
    Ratings: +797 / 1
    You hit the nail on the head. It's not gun control we should be concerned about it's criminal control.

    Laws already exist against assault, murder, illegal gun possession, etc, ad nauseum...make the enforcement and resultant punishment swift and terminal. Life in prison or death, take your pick.
  4. LG Mix New Member

    Posts: 260
    Near the border
    Ratings: +0 / 0
    I believe the founding fathers enshrined the right to keep and bear firearms not to protect ourselves from so much from criminals but rather from tyrants.

    I am surprised to find myself sympathetic to Roper's point that tracking ammo purchases is harrassment of gun owners. This is a thought provoking question.
    -- Larry

    Addendum: I was responding to "Crime and criminals are like a wart on the world that will NEVER go away. This is why the founders of our nation gave us the right to have a gun in the first place." In the time it took to write my three sentenances this topic took off. Good luck gentlemen. Let me know when you resolve this one.
  5. Porter Active Member

    Posts: 6,478
    Kenmore, WA, USA.
    Ratings: +535 / 0
    This has been said over and over but never rings with politicians ...PEOPLE KILL PEOPLE...NOT Drugs and Guns

    Less is sometimes more. Poor attempt to restrict criminal activity with ammo being engraved.

    Start locking the bastards up for a significant time...and over time it will diminish (they can't reproduce butt-fucking each other..can they?) :confused:
  6. Bruce Baker Active Member

    Posts: 557
    Olympia, WA
    Ratings: +49 / 0
    A source of mine has told me that for all intended purposes, this bill is dead.
  7. gearhead Active Member

    Posts: 661
    Renton, wa
    Ratings: +45 / 0
    Whats wrong with you guys. Everybody says how soft Washington is on crime, but everytime somebody in Olympia tries to go after crime, they get yelled at. Is there really anything wrong with making it harder for criminals to victimize our families and communities. If you didn't do anything wrong and don't plan to, whats the problem:confused: can't we all get along? Lol, i can't take it anymore my own crap is starting to bother me.:p I agree with ya Roper. This is not only insane, it's incompetence and silly. nice to know our crack and welfare dollars are hard at work here. just raising money to help baby dropping whores and non working trash. With out a doubt i believe this Bill will die as well. Its just a reminder to many of us, that we are behind enemy lines.
  8. David Prutsman All men are equal before fish

    Posts: 322
    Woodland Park, Colorado
    Ratings: +25 / 0
    To quote the great intellect...Larry the Cable Guy

    "Guns don't kill people, husbands who come home early kill people. If guns kill people then I'm blamin misspelled words on my pencil"

    David
  9. Peter Schmid New Member

    Posts: 13
    Merritt, BC
    Ratings: +0 / 0
    I will wade in as someone who has never owned a gun and only fired a real gun once (Old British 303 Rifle) and scared the crap out of myself, so I can safely say I have nothing invested.
    BUT, up here in Canada, the Feds tried a similar program with a firearm registry. Great intentions that cost I believe well into the hundreds of millions before it was eventually was scrapped. Money NOT well spent.

    From a complete outsiders point of view I do understand politicians and lawmakers desire to make our streets safer, but there clearly needs to be better ways to do so. Education? Enforcement? I dunno. What I do know is that most of us are honest folk who go and buy their fishing/hunting licenses, follow the regs and generally go by the book. It really is the small, yet "higher" profile % of people (read : criminals) that get the attention and are the cause of this type of legislation.
    anyway, my 2 cents worth from north of the 49.
    cheers,
    P

    Kinda makes me think of a Toby Keith/ Willie Nelson song,

    "Grand pappy told my pappy back in my day, son
    A man had to answer for the wicked that he'd done
    Take all the rope in Texas
    Find a tall oak tree, round up all of them bad boys
    Hang them high in the street
    For all the people to see"
  10. Roper Idiot Savant

    Posts: 4,317
    Glenraven Ranch
    Ratings: +797 / 1
  11. Charlie S Confrimed Reprobate

    Posts: 275
    Ukiah, CA but moving to Spokane
    Ratings: +1 / 0
    Having retired from law enforcement I can chime in a say that many above make excellent points. However, this bill would be of limited value as the prosecution of someone because they had bought a certain batch of ammunition would be difficult at best. It would also boost the price of handgun ammunition to excessive levels.

    As many above have also stated, it is not guns/knives/hammers, etc that kill people but criminals who commit the crimes. Until we can convince the courts to subject criminals to meaningful sentences that will "punish" them we will continue to beat our heads against the wall of frustration in maintaining a safe environment.
  12. Josh dead in the water

    Posts: 2,978
    NW Washington
    Ratings: +519 / 2
    Thanks for the info so far folks.

    Although I can't imagine anyone trying to prosecute a case on the basis of just the registered name on the ammo. Does that sort of thing happen with registered handgun owners? I guess I could see the cops showing up at the door of a registered owner and asking some questions. But any prosecutor who tried to prove a case solely on registration info would rightfully be laughed out of court. At least I would hope so.

    When I asked the question above about if this would be useful to law enforcement, I guess I was thinking more of it being one more bit of information to lead them down the path to the criminals.
  13. Jon Borcherding New Member

    Posts: 535
    Tacoma, WA
    Ratings: +0 / 0
    I would recomend a google search on Randy Weaver Gun Registration and Branch Davidians Gun Registration. Both searches will provide some interesting reading from which you can draw your own conclusions.

    JonB
  14. Josh dead in the water

    Posts: 2,978
    NW Washington
    Ratings: +519 / 2
    No offense, but I'd rather create my opinions from information that doesn't relate to two of the most botched and conspiracy attributed law enforcement actions in recent history. Unless one believes that every investigation and criminal prosecution in the country is run as badly as they were, those two events are so far on the ends on the bell curve that they aren't useful for a reasonable discussion.
  15. dryflylarry "Chasing Riseforms"

    Posts: 4,104
    Near the Fjord
    Ratings: +570 / 0
    I’m more concerned about our government’s illegal wire-taping, illegal wars, torture, corporate America’s greed, healthcare problems, economy, and an administration that has brought down America, etc.… you want to write letters?…..Do it! Write your State Senator and Representatives today, and Congressman.:)
  16. Daryle Holmstrom retiredfishak

    Posts: 2,572
    Mount Vernon, WA
    Ratings: +106 / 0
    This is still opened:confused::confused::confused:
  17. Roper Idiot Savant

    Posts: 4,317
    Glenraven Ranch
    Ratings: +797 / 1
    What do you mean Daryle, the thread or the HB3359?
  18. TomB Active Member

    Posts: 1,620
    seattle,wa
    Ratings: +58 / 0
    If you have to register by name to buy sudafed, then having serial numbers on ammunition can't be that bad. If anything, it will be a way to assist law enforcement in tracking where ammunition from crime scenes was purchased.
  19. Jon Borcherding New Member

    Posts: 535
    Tacoma, WA
    Ratings: +0 / 0
    Two problems with this line of thinking, Tom:
    1. Signing for Sudafed has done very little to curtail the meth problem so using this analogy is entirely appropriate in my opinion.

    2. This is a good illustration of how one useless, bureaucratic, invasive law is used to justify another useless, bureaucratic, invasive law.

    The LEOs I've spoken with DO NOT agree that "it will be a way to assist law enforcement in tracking where ammunition from crime scenes was purchased". In fact, the LEOs I've spoken with think that this is a useless proposal. Consider this, revolvers do not leave spent cases, projectiles when fired into meat and bone are usually fragmented beyond recognition and the supply of unmarked cases and projectiles is so enormous that it will be easy to procure unmarked ammunition for years to come. I believe this proposal would also encourage a lucrative black market for unmarked ammo.
    The end result would be no increase in public safety and further harassment of law abiding gun owners. This is so obvious that i can only believe that must be the real objective.
    I have not heard or read one shred of evidence that this measure would increase public safety. In fact I haven't even read one convincing argument that this could increase public safety.

    JonB
  20. Jon Borcherding New Member

    Posts: 535
    Tacoma, WA
    Ratings: +0 / 0
    Yes, you're absolutely correct. These atrocities should be ignored.
    More sand please, the ostrich is getting uncomfortable!

    JonB