NFR: HB3359 seeks to serialize handgun ammo

Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by Roper, Feb 13, 2008.

  1. Josh dead in the water

    Posts: 2,938
    NW Washington
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    Nice attitude.

    This is what annoys me about people on either end of arguments like this. They just want to spout insults and rhetoric, not actually talk with those of us in the middle. I guess it's nice that it's an equal opportunity thing, I get the same crap from PETA supporters as I do from gun-rights advocates.

    Way to win people to your cause Jon.
  2. Adam Taylor Member

    Posts: 138
    Newtown, CT
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    Root-

    I agree with you. Doesn't help anyone's cause when they go into the realm of the extreme.

    Roper-
    Excellent addendum to my comment. You are correct in saying too many criminals on the streets with guns.

    Now if the ostrich can get it's head out of the sand long enough to rationally discuss the issue then by all means let's continue.
  3. Citori Piscatorial Engineer

    Posts: 1,201
    Federal Way, WA
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    IMO, not having a solution to the problem does not justify passing a bill to do something else.

    If you remember the movie "10" with Bo Derek...Dudley Moore was having coffee with the Vicar in his den. There was a great dane lying in front of the fire. This old lady came tottering in to bring the coffee, and broke wind. The dog whimpered and got up and ran from the room. The Vicar said, "Oh, that's Mrs. Smithers. When she breaks wind, we beat the dog."

    That didn't work either...
  4. Jon Borcherding New Member

    Posts: 535
    Tacoma, WA
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    OK, I'll take that. Sometimes I lose my patience with the people "in the middle".
    Josh, you claimed in an earlier post that you:
    .
    I thought that I would help your imagination with a suggestion that you peruse some of the info that is readily available on govt. abuse of current firearms legislation.
    You replied:
    It seems to me that you are willing to sweep from the table valid evidence of abuse rather than confront the reality that such abuses actually exist. It seems that your rationale for doing so is that these two atrocities were too extreme to be useful for discussion.
    I suspect that if I were to provide more subtle examples of govt. intrusion that you would argue that these do not constitute enough of a breach of freedom to be useful for discussion.
    My overall impression is that you are not going to be swayed by any of the arguments presented here in defense of the second ammendment. On the contrary, you would prefer to pretend a neutral stance while you take potshots at all the arguments you disagree with while claiming to have a so called moderate viewpoint.
    It is unfortunate if you find my language or demeanor to be offensive. That was certainly not my intent.
    I am absolutely not ashamed to be grouped among those you choose to label as "gun rights advocates". You have probably noticed that those who support the second ammendment belive that it is every bit as important as the first ammendment and that some of us have taken offense at the constant efforts of the gun ban lobby to strip this right from the constitution one little piece at a time.
    Consider this Josh, those of us who support the 2nd aren't trying to take anything away from you. Those who wish to abridge the RKBA are trying to take away a right that is held sacred by us.
    If you choose to side with the gun ban lobby you will continue to get some pretty sharp replies to your rhetorical questions.

    JonB
  5. Josh dead in the water

    Posts: 2,938
    NW Washington
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    I would caution anyone with strong beliefs to not "lose patience" with those of us "in the middle". The middle is where a majority of america resides with their beliefs. I work very hard to try and keep an open mind and to be willing to change my stance if I am presented with evidence to the contrary. And it is one of my biggest peeves that the those on the extreme ends of any issue want to throw the "you're with us or you're against us" attitude at me. That flat-out ignores a huge percentage of americans. The left does it with Nascar dads (oddly enough I'm watching the daytona duels with my pregnant wife as I watch this) and the right does it with Soccer Moms (which my wife no doubt will be).

    No, I'm not with you or against you. I have an initial opinion (I'm not worried about registering handgun ammo, I'd have to register the handgun itself) that is based on my own life experience (guns have been in, but not a huge part of, my life and only a few of my friends are in law enforcement). But initial opinions are usually not based on much in the way of facts, so I ask questions to learn.

    No, I just do not think that situations that exist on the extreme ends of the spectrum of life are useful in discussions like this. Yes, Ruby Ridge and Waco were a mess. Law enforcement made huge mistakes, we all know that by now. But those events are not the majority of law enforcement in america. Ruby Ridge and Waco were very singular and rare situations, which is why we are still talking about them over a decade later. Trying to use them as an answer to my "would this law help law enforcement" as as unhelpful as the anti gun person who answers "would crime go down if assault rifles were all confiscated?" by saying "the columbine shooters used assault rifles". Well yeah, they did. But the vast majority of crime, even the vast majority of gun deaths do not come from assault rifles. So that fact is not helpful for the discussion. (and yes, I know that one was an assault "rifle" and one was an assault "pistol" at columbine, but you get my point).

    If that is your belief, you are entitled to it. But you've wasted a chance to educate me and everyone else reading this thread.
  6. Jon Borcherding New Member

    Posts: 535
    Tacoma, WA
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    C'mon Josh, there was never any chance that I could "educate" you. You have already chosen sides in this debate and if you really are still "in the middle" do I actually have the kind of power necessary to sway your opinion?
    By the way, what was your "initial opinion"?
    I'm curious, did the many posts by others sway your opinion?
    I must confess, my intent was never to educate you or "everyone else reading this thread". I don't see that as my job. I'm just exercising my right to self expression. Hope you don't mind.

    JonB
  7. Josh dead in the water

    Posts: 2,938
    NW Washington
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    I told you my initial impression in my previous post and where that opinion came from:

    But I'm done with this. You appear to be more interested in calling me a liar and questioning my motives then talking about the subject. I guess you know everything.
  8. Jon Borcherding New Member

    Posts: 535
    Tacoma, WA
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    I am considering the grim possibility that I have actually wasted the opportunity to educate people reading this thread. I readily admit that I am unsuited to the task of educating people who oppose freedoms outlined in our constitution.

    I have taken the liberty of posting links to several resources that will enable anyone who wishes to learn more about the 2nd ammendment and gun control.

    http://ls.wustl.edu/WULQ/75-3/753-4.html

    http://guncite.com/journals/okslip.html

    http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/493636.html

    JonB
  9. gt Active Member

    Posts: 2,616
    sequim, WA
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    yah.........we don't need no f..kin' gun control or nothin'...........

    http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/1110ap_niu_shooting.html

    if those kids in that class had their heat, the guy would'a'been blown away....yeah, thats the ticket............more guns in the hands of more lunnies!

    actually why not number ammo lots?? makes pretty good sense to me as another avenue for tracking a crime. or maybe, we should just eliminate all serial numbers on fire arms.................
  10. Jon Borcherding New Member

    Posts: 535
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    I don't recall anyone suggesting that school children should be armed or that firearm serial numbers should be eliminated.
    I think your question,
    has been covered pretty well already in this thread.
    Of course the shooting story is tragic. Try to remember that about 295 crimes were prevented today with defensive use of privately owned firearms. It won't make the tragedy go away but it's important to keep in mind that every day guns are used to spare others from facing a tragedy at the hands of an armed criminal. Are you aware that there is a documented case of an armed teacher taking down a gunman at a school?

    JonB
  11. Jon Borcherding New Member

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    Little is written of the successful journeys of the 250 million registered vehicles on American roadways but every single accident involving injury or death will receive media attention directly commensurate to the carnage involved.

    Tens of thousands of successful flights in and out of American airports receive no attention whatsoever from the all seeing eye of American news media until something goes wrong and then, once again, the concentration, intensity and duration of media coverage is directly commensurate to the carnage involved.

    There are approximately 200 million privately owned guns in the United States. Every day the vast majority of them lies quietly in safes and locked drawers and nightstands and they receive little or no attention from the media. While each day privately owned guns are used at least 295 times (by the most conservative estimates) to prevent the commission of a crime. This too receives little or no attention from the media.

    However, when a gun is used by a criminal to commit mayhem, the media is all consuming in its lust for every gory detail with every possible nuance of the carnage exposed in living color, sometimes prompting newscasters to warn viewers of the graphic images of wretched human destruction they are about to witness.

    It’s not too difficult to understand that some people begin to believe that it’s the guns causing the crime. Nearly all media coverage concerning firearms is tragic and every shred of tragedy is amplified by the ghoulish eye of our news media.
    It’s also easy to understand the anti gun sentiment that this coverage has fostered in many Americans. How many people actually know that guns are used to prevent crimes at least 295 times each day?

    It would be a beautiful world if there were no violence. We could have all the guns we wanted and enjoy them for shooting sports and never worry about a gun being used violently. Unfortunately humans are violent. If and when we ever cease to be violent, guns will no longer be an issue.

    The best way to keep guns off the street is to keep violent criminals in prison.
    The best way to keep guns out of the hands of the criminally insane is to confine the insane criminals where they can’t hurt the rest of us.
    The best way to overcome your fear of firearms is to familiarize your self with them and the statistics that outline the real risks of lawful gun ownership. The statistics show that guns are far safer than cars.
    The best way to stop a morally bankrupt meth fueled recidivist from robbing you at gunpoint and doing whatever he wants to your wife and children is to empty your handgun into his center body mass.

    Or maybe you could offer him some cookies and warm milk while you call 911?


    JonB
  12. 05tacoma Member

    Posts: 246
    Auburn, WA
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    My friend said Pam Roach's office told him this bill was DOA.
  13. jimmysworking Well, at least I'm supposed to be...

    Posts: 72
    Kent, WA
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    It is for this year. Next year we may see it all over again, that unfortunately is the way things seem to happen here in the People's Republic of Washington.
  14. Chris Puma hates waking up early

    Posts: 966
    stumptown
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    where are you coming up with your statistics? i could say that each day 1 million people die as a result of guns. it doesn't mean it's true. i just posted in the wff to argue with you. hell, 1 million even makes your 295 seem trivial. argument won. why don't you also post how many people each day are killed through the use of a legal and illegal obtained guns? your arugment would be sound to some degree at least.

    just curious, have you ever lived in a real bad neighborhood before? someone who grew up in montana or eastern washington is going to have a much different perspective of gun control than someone who has lived in bad neighborhoods such as carol city, south bronx, or north philly. i mean my g/f grew up in the ghetto. she saw someone walk up to a random person on the street, pull out a gun and blow the someones head off. this is when she was 6 years old. her perspective on gun control is going to be a lot different than yours. you should respect that. the way you're arguing with josh root demonstrates to me at least that you don't care about anyone elses opinion or experiences. you basically just call them a pussy for not "cowboying up".

    i'm not arguing against your beliefs. i'm just commenting on how you chose to argue.

    honestly, guns in the hands of people kill people. take away the guns people will kill people less efficiently. take away the guns people will still illegally obtain guns. it's pointless. sort of like the "war on drugs". it's pretty crappy that people who use guns in a responsible manner are caught up in this crossfire. american's attitude about firearms might need to change? arguing the way you are isn't going to help win anyone in the middle of the crossfire.
  15. gt Active Member

    Posts: 2,616
    sequim, WA
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    folks can replay the NRA talking points all they want, but at the end of the day, the killing continues.
  16. Adam Taylor Member

    Posts: 138
    Newtown, CT
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    The best way to stop a morally bankrupt meth fueled recidivist from robbing you at gunpoint and doing whatever he wants to your wife and children is to empty your handgun into his center body mass.

    I can't believe I just read that....so in your estimation the only way to combat crime is for everyone to be carrying a weapon?
  17. Adam Taylor Member

    Posts: 138
    Newtown, CT
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    Food for thought

    In 1992, Americans owned 212 million guns. A gun is made in America every ten seconds and another gun is imported every eleven seconds. Rates of gun ownership in the United States run about twenty times the rate in comparable nations- and so do the rates of homicide. In 1993, more than five times as many victims died from firearms than knives.
  18. Jon Borcherding New Member

    Posts: 535
    Tacoma, WA
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    Chris, Here is where I'm getting my numbers. The National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS), which in 1993, estimated 108,000 Defensive Gun Uses (DGU's) annually. 108,000 divided by 364 = 295 DGU/day.

    The NCVS is considered to be a very conservative estimate of DGUs because the NCVS is a non-anonymous national survey conducted by a branch of the federal government, the U.S. Bureau of the Census. Interviewers identify themselves to respondents as federal government employees, even displaying, in face-to-face contacts, an identification card with a badge.

    Respondents are told that the interviews are being conducted on behalf of the U.S. Department of Justice, the law enforcement branch of the federal government. As a preliminary to asking questions about crime victimization experiences, interviewers establish the address, telephone number, and full names of all occupants, age twelve and over, in each household they contact. In short, it is made very clear to respondents that they are, in effect, speaking to a law enforcement arm of the federal government, whose employees know exactly who the respondents and their family members are, where they live, and how they can be recontacted."
    (Source: Gary, Kleck and Marc Gertz, "Armed Resistance to Crime: The Prevalence and Nature of Self-Defense with a Gun," Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology 1995, Vol. 86 No. 1.)

    More realistic numbers based on less confrontational statistic gathering methods estimate the annual number of DGUs at well over 1.5 million. This number is based on a survey by Dr. Gary Kleck, a Florida State University criminologist.

    Yes, I've lived in some pretty ugly neighborhoods. My solution to the violence was to remove myself from the area. Retreat is always my first choice of responses when I am faced with criminal violence.

    I feel that I have presented a series of well founded out arguments. I have seen nothing from you or Josh that refutes anything in my arguments. Instead you choose to complain about the way that the material has been presented.

    Honestly gentlemen, I have called NO ONE a "pussy" for not "cowboying up". Those are your words, Chris. It's worth noting that Josh, Chris, and gt are all using the same tactic of trying to smear the opposition because they seem to have nothing solid to bring to the discussion.

    gt, the killing will continue even if you and your fellows are successfull in legislating away the RKBA. Violence is an unfortunate part of the human condition. The anti gun lobby has been very successful at making gun ownership nearly impossible for law abiding citizens in Washington DC but they have been a dismal failure at lowering the level of violence in that city. Perhaps it would be a good idea to try to remove the violence at it's source rather than continually attacking the right of law abiding citizens to keep and bear arms?

    It seems that your "NRA talking points" crack aims to infer that these opinions are not my own. Let me assure you that they are my opinions. I have sourced every cite that is not mine and yes, I am a proud member of the NRA and the GOA. The friends of the NRA will soon be holding their annual banquet at the Tacoma Sportsmens Club and they will be receiving a donation of at least $500 from my wife and myself. It makes me proud to know that some of my money will be used in the NRA's "Eddie the Eagle Program" which teaches children about gun safety and how to avoid accidental injury by firearms.

    Thank you all for an interesting discussion and inspiring my further activism for the right to keep and bear arms.

    JonB
  19. Citori Piscatorial Engineer

    Posts: 1,201
    Federal Way, WA
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    There are countries that have enacted stringent gun controls, and since doing so, have recorded increases in gun-related crime. That data is apparently not in question. Australia and Great Britain in specific.

    Brady bill data shows inverse correlation between gun control and crime - CA and Wash, DC having the highest Brady scores, and yet had the highest crime rates in the nation. The 10 states with lowest violent crime, murder and robbery rates had the poorest Brady scores.

    If the hypothesis is that fewer guns or more stringent gun control results in more safety, the facts do not support this conclusion in the areas where that hypothesis has been tested.
  20. Jon Borcherding New Member

    Posts: 535
    Tacoma, WA
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    "Gun death" statistics are frequently cited, in the manner above, to strongly suggest that guns are the cause behind the high violent death rate in the U.S. When quoting violent gun use statistics no mention is made that over half of those violent deaths are suicides. Anti gunners often quote numbers of gun homicides and gun suicides, but fail to show us the total violent death rate of other countries, not just gun deaths. For example, in Japan, where gun ownership is rare, its total suicide rate is higher than our total suicide rate.

    Combining gun suicide and homicide deaths creates a sensational comparison with other countries, but only clouds and distorts the many factors actually behind violent death rates. Looking at only gun deaths, it is easy to get the false impression that, because of guns, the United States is the most violent country on earth.

    Rather than being the "league leader" in violent death rates, as the sensational and misleading media reports suggest when focusing exclusively on guns, though the U.S. is still high, its violent death rate is not orders of magnitude higher than other countries.

    The "gun death" statistic is seldom referenced within its proper perspective and context. Also rare is the statistic that represents the number of lives saved through defensive gun use and that our homicide rate is at a thirty year low and still declining (FBI Uniform Crime Reports).