NFR: No Solution, just dead kids...

Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by Go Fish, Dec 14, 2012.

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  1. Go Fish

    Go Fish Language, its a virus

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    No Solution , just dead kids....

    Good to see that some of the people here
    are offering compelling advice and comment
    (ie GAT and Dick O) with a possibility
    of changing or helping this issue versus
    dropping bombs of bs with no relevence
    to this horror.

    Dave
     
  2. Jason Rolfe

    Jason Rolfe Wanderer

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    It's unthinkable, and impossible to wrap your mind around this.

    What I'll say is, put aside your views for a minute. Put aside your beliefs.

    Think about what you can do to help this never happen again. And I'm not just talking about carrying a piece. Sure, maybe there's a place for that, but in the end that is simply a reaction, and not an action.

    I'm talking about taking the best care possible of your own kids, your brothers and sisters, nephews, nieces, neighbor kids--including getting them mental health help if they need it.
    I'm talking about volunteering at your local school, community organization, church--anywhere--and somehow being a positive presence in a kid's life--especially those kids who need it most. There are so many of them out there who simply need to see that someone cares. That someone is interested in them.
    I think it goes without saying that this shooter was beyond fucked up. The sad thing is, there was probably a time when he wasn't, when he was just a kid trying to get through life. I don't know.
    What I do know is, I see and work with kids every day who barely have a chance. And for a lot of them, it is a simple matter of connecting them with an adult who truly wants to see them succeed.

    I'd encourage you to do what you can toward that end, in any way, shape, or form. You never know who you might be helping.

    Jason
     
  3. Roper

    Roper Idiot Savant

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    I see you never filled out a Federal Firearms form, those and more are already there. No permit is required to steal someone else' gun though.

    These horrific crimes are a spiritual problem with a spiritual answer. Look around at our world today. Is it any wonder these things happen? Look at what is important to people today, particularly in the US. Kids attend MMA fights to see guys beat each other silly. Violent video games released just in time for the kids at Christmas. Fer chrissakes folks get killed in a stampede on Black Friday over a flat screen TV. The middle East is busy destroying itself and we're helping. The President brags about killing Bin Laden. Our civilization is in ruin, we never learn from history, we just keep repeating it. Is it really any surprise?
     
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  4. Bradley Miller

    Bradley Miller Dances with fish

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    Dude, that is a truly helpful observation. I have a houseful of teenage foster boys who have all (ALL) manner of screwed up backgrounds, disabilities, and behavior problems.
    We see patterns. (No fly fishing pun intended....) We have boys who never really ever had any chance at a real shot at a successful, productive life at all (as far as it would appear)....but they are here, and they are among us. And yes, I believe many of them need a connection, as you describe. Good call. Foster care needs more mentors. Just sayin'.
     
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  5. Jim Welch

    Jim Welch Veni, Vidi, Fishi

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  6. Go Fish

    Go Fish Language, its a virus

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  7. Kelly Michelsen

    Kelly Michelsen Active Member

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    Max Lucado
    Posted this today after the news....
    Kelly
    A Christmas Prayer

    by Max Lucado • December 14

    Dear Jesus,

    It’s a good thing you were born at night. This world sure seems dark. I have a good eye for silver linings. But they seem dimmer lately.

    These killings, Lord. These children, Lord. Innocence violated. Raw evil demonstrated.

    The whole world seems on edge. Trigger-happy. Ticked off. We hear threats of chemical weapons and nuclear bombs. Are we one button-push away from annihilation?

    Your world seems a bit darker this Christmas. But you were born in the dark, right? You came at night. The shepherds were nightshift workers. The Wise Men followed a star. Your first cries were heard in the shadows. To see your face, Mary and Joseph needed a candle flame. It was dark. Dark with Herod’s jealousy. Dark with Roman oppression. Dark with poverty. Dark with violence.

    Herod went on a rampage, killing babies. Joseph took you and your mom into Egypt. You were an immigrant before you were a Nazarene.

    Oh, Lord Jesus, you entered the dark world of your day. Won’t you enter ours? We are weary of bloodshed. We, like the wise men, are looking for a star. We, like the shepherds, are kneeling at a manger.

    This Christmas, we ask you, heal us, help us, be born anew in us.

    Hopefully,

    Your Children
     
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  8. Be Jofus G

    Be Jofus G Banned or Parked

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    What was a guy who was not a student, staff, or a parent doing inside an elementary school? Seems like a pretty simple problem to solve. I have to swipe a badge and walk past security every day. Not that big of a deal.
     
  9. Jason Rolfe

    Jason Rolfe Wanderer

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    that's definitely one solution. But think about the financial difficulties most school's have now. I think that, sadly, there may not be enough money in most school districts for that to be a reality. I don't know if it is actually that easy. A security system and personnel would be expensive as hell, taking away from already cash-strapped schools that can't afford enough teachers to take care of the kids they've got. I agree though, it would be a really great thing if we could have people in every school who are put there to protect the kids. Even better would be to move toward a society where that isn't needed.
     
  10. Be Jofus G

    Be Jofus G Banned or Parked

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    I've installed the "soft" systems a couple times. If you go RFID and simple infrared cams It's not too bad cost wise, especially at the discounts given to the education sector. The Hard system is where it can get expensive. If it wasn't planned for when the building was designed, creating a single point of entry can get expensive really fast. All of those "campus" style elementary schools they started building here in the 90's would be $$ to secure.
     
  11. SteveA

    SteveA Gnu to the board

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    School officials certainly need to be aware of who is in or around the school premises but I can't see how swiping a badge is going to stop one of these nuts. He'll just break the glass or come in behind the next person.

    At the risk of starting a flame war, this is an idea I've been toying with the last couple years. Seems like a constant in many of these mass shooting is that the shooters are young males. Perhaps there should be laws put into place that restrict possession of semi-automatic weapons by anyone under age 30. No handguns at all until 25 and restricted to revolvers.

    Before anyone has the chance to tell me that these changes would not have stopped today's shooter, I will say, you are correct. The weapons he got his hands on were not secured and that is another problem. But clearly the legal possession of semi-automatic guns by young adults continues to be costly to our society.

    I don't see this as any kind of all-encompassing solution but it is something that could possibly reduce these terrible mass shootings.
     
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  12. Richard Olmstead

    Richard Olmstead BigDog

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    Apparently they did have a controlled entry system, but the guy's mother was a teacher at the school and he was known to them. Metal detectors are not commonly used at elementary schools.
     
  13. Be Jofus G

    Be Jofus G Banned or Parked

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    He was also dressed like a ninja sporting a bullet proof vest and armed to the teeth. I don't care if his mother was theresa and it was bring a psycotic paramilitary ninja to work day, he shouldn't have been allowed in that school unless he's staff, student or a parent. Obviously, there was a flaw in their security plan, probably human error.

    Steve, there are ways to prevent that. I won't speak to it being I'm not a professional security consultant. I've only worked with a couple on securing some sites with previous employers. The design of those buildings were easy to secure with rfid, infrared camers, and electronic locks that could be controlled from a central location. I'm sure every site is different.
     
  14. Old Man

    Old Man Just an Old Man

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    I have gotten to quit watching the news on TV because of all the violence. It seems everyday there is somebody killing somebody or a group of people.

    And talking about knives. When I was in Washington and went to the courthouse I had to check my fingernail clippers before I went in. Here in Montana there is no such law. I went to court to sit on jury. I carry a Swiss army knife. in my pocket. Nobody checked me for any weapons.

    You people on the coast are all wound to damn tight. Both East and West coasts. It may be that I live in the western part of America that we don't all think like that.

    I'll say no more on this shit.
     
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  15. wa_desert_rat

    wa_desert_rat Active Member

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    The idea that no one should be allowed into a school other than staff, students or parents is, and no disrespect here, ludicrous.

    Phone repair people, computer sales persons, cell phone purveyors, copy machine supplies and repair, book sales... the list goes on and on. Human error pervades every human endeavor. Don't make the school the perpetrator here. They knew the guy, he probably offered a plausible explanation for wanting to see the principal, his weapons were hidden and his vest was probably under his sweatshirt.

    If there is any flaw in their plan it's that people don't have to present themselves to someone who can look at them other than via television cameras. You may have noticed that public schools are under serious financial stresses lately.

    Perhaps someone should look at the meds the shooter was taking and determine if they helped turn him into a psychotic killer. There are some interesting side effects from some of the new ones out there now.

    Craig
     
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  16. dryflylarry

    dryflylarry "Chasing Riseforms"

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    No, I never have filled out a form, nor own a pistol, but only own a shotgun and small rifle. I agree with everything you said except the silly comment about our great President. Since my tour in Vietnam, I raised a great son, and, because of that war, I never let him during his childhood years to play with "toy weapons" as shown in the attached website link. I think allowing your kids to grow up playing "wargames" is bullshit. I think it is ok when older however. Personally, I think these "toys" are total bs and have contributed to a lot of this violence of today:
    https://www.kids-army.com/categories/Toy-Army-Guns/?gclid=COrB-6zbm7QCFSFyQgodniEAPQ
     
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  17. slider292

    slider292 Guest

    Yeah, you probably shouldn't. Last time I checked Colorado (see: Columbine High School) was at a similar longitude as Montana.
     
  18. Cruik

    Cruik Active Member

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    Why is it that every time something awful happens, we have to have a knee-jerk policy change? If you want to commit resources to solve a social ill and improve the human condition, this is a poor choice. If we are going to spend our time and money on fixing a problem, we should find one that's fixable or at least stands a better chance at helping the most people. If we attempt to fix gun violence in schools, I suspect the returns will be marginal and in the process, we will inch closer to infringing upon our civil liberties (gun ownership and the rights of mentally impaired).

    As a political issue, gun violence in schools is sexy and we are all being used. Cable news networks love it because they get such a great spike in ratings and all they have to do is harass children and families in the midst of tragedy or publicize second-hand incorrect information. Politicians love it because if they properly wield the sensationalism, no opposition can stand in the way of the agenda buried in the 'Keep our Children Safe Act of 2013.' "Mr. Senator, are you telling me you don't support keeping our children safe?"

    The problem is we keep thinking society is going downhill. The truth is that crime rates, including violent crime peaked over twenty years ago and the senseless acts that keep us up at night were probably more prevalent in the 'Golden Era' than they are now. There are more people in this world and tragedies are a lot more entrancing when they are breaking news and not just something you read about in the newspaper. The news networks are good at exploiting our emotions because we love hearing about tragedies "That could even happen to you and your affluent, white, suburban family. *Gasp*" With this kind of live news coverage it's easy to start fearing for the safety of your children and grandchildren when in reality, they're likely safer than you were when growing up.
     
  19. dryflylarry

    dryflylarry "Chasing Riseforms"

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    I'm glad your child wasn't there!.................geesus.
     
  20. Ed Call

    Ed Call Mumbling Moderator Staff Member

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    We, as a nation, waste billions. Invest billions elsewhere than within our nation. Investing in hardening systems that will further deter unauthorized access to our schools where our most vulnerable citizens are collected is not out of the realm of possibility. Never compare the costs to invest in such practices when the alternative price is truly priceless. This tragedy is as much about access control and mental health monitoring as it is about any type of weapons.
     
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