Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by Go Fish, Dec 14, 2012.
I take it you've never had to present a purchase order to enter a building before?
Dear Jesus, please forgive us for devolving into a base society. We have chosen to replace you and your ultimate and loving justice with our notion of "fairness without consequence."
Please place within us the knowledge of your love, kindness and truth. We need it badly.
Beside this horror what brings me to despair is, at a time like this, the number of posts that are without compassion for the victims or those trying to take part in a heart felt discussion of the tragedy, the state of our society and the many complex variables that we as a country must deal with now and in the future.
I have prayed & prayed for those impacted by this horrific event. I can't fathom losing one of my Children or a loved one this way.
That being said, guns, even semi-auto handguns & "military-issue" guns existed "back in the day." There were consequences for actions, there was discipline at home & in schools, and God & religion played a greater role in everyday life. There was a death penalty for heinous crimes, criminals didn’t have more rights than victims, and in general people were held accountable. What DIDN'T exist was a society & businesses that glorified violence in movies, in video games, on TV, in song lyrics, in the moral & ethical decay that has afflicted America and has adversely-affected generations of young folks who have been constantly bombarded with such trash.
There is so much we don't know about the "why" of this event, but guns were only a tool in both this and other senseless tragedies. Guns aren't the disease that must be treated & gun control/bans won't halt senseless violence. We can ban guns, black clothes, quasi-military gear but that won't cure the disease; there is a plethora of other “tools” that evil people can use to inflict harm on others. Taking-away the ability of honest & responsible citizens to defend themselves from violent acts will only create more helpless victims and won’t cure the disease. Our dedicated, devoted, and highly-prepared law enforcement professionals can't stop such events no matter how much they want to, they can only respond after the fact and this won’t cure the disease. Today’s society has many ills & THAT is what needs to be controlled & fixed.
People who argue that the existence of so many guns in our country is disconnected from our high gun-related death rate are on the wrong side of the data. Among developed nations, we are unique in terms of having so many guns, and having such a high gun-related death rate (murder and suicide combined). On the other hand, we are already more religious than other developed nations with far lower gun crime and overall murder rates. And I've yet to see any statistic that proves the US has 10x more crazy people than other nations. Sorry folks, the distinguishing factor is availability of guns, the most highly efficient means of killing large numbers of people in a short period of time. You can't do with knives, bombs or any other weapon what you can do with guns. And so the result is that the US is more like Somalia and Mexico than Japan or the UK on murder rates. The facts on this point are indisputable, and you should stop arguing against those facts.
But rest easy, because you have a different and far better argument against gun control: The gun genie is out of the bottle in the US and it isn't going back in. We have more guns than people in the US. Even if laws restricting gun ownership were enacted, those hundred of millions of guns would still be in circulation, only now, fewer of them would be in the hands of law-abiding and sane citizens. Crazy and bad people would still have guns, and thus we'd likely be in more danger than we are already in.
So if you're like me, you get really practical and conclude "I need a gun too", even if that's no panacea of personal and family safety. I was already planning to buy one this winter for personal protection in the field and at home. Of course, that won't do my kids at school any good, who are unlikely to carry an AR-15 in their backpacks. It's a shitty situation all around.
This tragedy is beyond my comprehension and my heart goes out to the students, staff, families and community.
Unfortunately, there was an eerily similar event recently. A 25 yr. old man from CT drove to Wyoming where he killed his father's girlfriend at home and then went to his father's community college classroom and killed his dad before killing himself. The young man had Asperger's and was reportedly mad at his father for passing it on to him. Now, reports say that Adam Lanza may have had Asperger's. Maybe it is just a coincidence that two young men from CT, both of whom reportedly had Asperger's and had parents who were educators, chose to kill their parents. It was truly a sad day for our nation.
There was another incident even more eerily similar in China yesterday. A man entered an elementary school and stabbed 20+ kids with a knife. But they all survived, as often happens in the recent spate of Chinese mass knife attacks. Knives and other weapons are just far less efficient killing tools than guns.
As noted, the gun genie is out of the bottle. Short of taking the Hitler approach and removing all guns from citizens, I can see no way to remove guns from the equation. Even if the sale of all guns from this day forward was enacted, the insane and criminals would still have access to guns.
We need to look at why people turn to the use of guns and focus on that problem.
For me, there is no doubt the guy was mentally deranged. Anyone with the state of mind to kill 6 year olds at a grade school had to be insane. He had no political or religious motive. From listening to opinions of those in the mental health profession, I agree with their assessment that this guy didn't just suddenly snap but was mentally off for a long time. Chances are, they will find clues that indicate as such. He probably shouldn't have been roaming around in the general populas and his own mother may have been afraid of what he'd do and the very reason she owned the guns she did. She may very well have been scared to death of her kid and the guns were to protect herself from him.
Some people do inherit genes that cause mental illness. Maybe he could have been helped and wasn't. Maybe our system, as has been my experience, simply prescribes some meds and dumped him back into society. As my shrink fishing buddy told me, there are people walking the streets that simply should not be walking the streets.
This country needs to stop whining about paying taxes and start funding jails and mental institutions to keep the killers away from those they will eventually kill. The alternative is to pay taxes to fund security guards and start posting guards at every school and building... basically turning our country into a martial law scenario.
The root cause of these tragedies need to be explored and corrected. Not the end results.
Think hard about the fact there are those walking the streets who should not be walking the streets the next time you bitch about paying taxes that would go to keeping the insane and criminals off the streets.
Otherwise, there's always the Hitler approach with the Gestapo showing up at your door and removing anything from your home that could be used as a weapon.
BTW: my friend, the shrink , carried a 9mm handgun with him at all times because he knew our mental health system is so flawed that people are out there who shouldn't be. That's pretty damned telling in itself.
Canada has a higher per capita gun ownership than the USA.
Excuse me, the second amendment makes no distinction as to the type of arms not to be infringed upon. At the time of writing, the flintlock rifle in common use was the latest hi tech small arm of the day, period!
America does indeed have a problem. But until the time comes when we are willing to admit that the problem is the crazies rather than the gun, the "problem" will remain unsolved. Junk in, junk out. The equation or algorithm is flawed, therefore it cannot produce a viable answer.
Condolences to those who lost a loved one at the hand of some crazy nut case.
Australia instituted a gun buy back and sale restrictions on semi automatic, automatic and shotguns in 1996 after a man massacred 35 people. In the next decade Australian murder rates from firearms dropped 59 %, their suicide rate from firearms dropped 65%. There was no corresponding rise in non-firearm associated murder or suicides. There was no Gestapo coming around taking guns away, people sold what they did not want or need.
If you believe the slogans of "Freedom Isn't Free" the costs of having firearms in the hands of those unfit to bear them turns out to be one of those "isn't frees." Others end up hurt. If there are fewer guns around there are fewer opportunities to destroy others.
I suspect if there were a psychological screening test for gun owners there would be some solid tendencies towards suspicious, paranoid and concrete thinking. We all have some of those thoughts. And at least when I have mine, they cycle, sometimes they are appropriate, sometimes sorta stupid. In my forties I can recognize when they are stupid much better than when I could in my teens and twenties, even so it still bothers me that somewhere in the head that drum still gets pounded...Anyway- take some of those tendencies, turn them up to 11 with a combination of some of the following- youth, sleep deprivation, a bout of deep depression, alcoholism, the tendency to assign blame (or an absence of empathy/forgiveness), breakup of a significant other, testosterone, pink slip etc and there is a volatility there. You can't lock up those tendencies, you can't medicate them away. They are in all of us. They haunt some people way more than we could ever know.
Maybe you can even teach empathy or emotional intelligence, but in my experience that's the toughest one. You either got it or you don't. And if you don't you either never had it (like in Aspergers/low emotional intelligence) or you lost it (PTSD/depression/Schizophrenia/Cynicism).
So yeah, if there was a proposal for a gun buyback and limitations on the sale of firearms similar to what was instituted in Australia, I would sleep better. there's data to suggest it is possible and that it achieves the desired result- fewer deaths from firearms.
The real facts, contrary to what the media would have you believe, are that guns are responsible for something like 5% of all deaths in America. Despite being registered and highly regulated, the automobile still ranks as the #1 killer. Speed kills you see. So 55mph is safer than 65mph. But people are still being killed and maimed by the evil auto. I know, lets reduce the speed limit even more, say to 45mpr. It's a start. (heard that before) Finally when we get the speed limit reduced to zero mph,then no one will be killed by the evil auto. Problem solved.
Oh really? And I thought guns had been outlawed in Canada?
OK I'll bite. By your logic and data my hometown should have experienced firearms related violence every day. EVery home had multiple firearms and every vehicle in school parking had at least one rifle. I remember carrying a buck knife to school as did many other students. Plus most families attended church and took an active role in the community. That backwards and primitive gun worshipping environment combining firearms and religion surely should have spawned 100's of mass killers. (Remember Barry Soetoro's dismissive clinging to your guns and religion remark)
of course now broken secular families are the norm like the families that spawned the AZ, CO and now evil POS CT shooter. Our culture is bombarded 24 7 by hyper violent movies and music desensitizing porn. An 18 year kid from a broken home can now stay home all day alone smoke dope and play first shooter video games that simulate the killings of hundreds of humans an hour.When this troubled kid is bored of the simulated killing he can go to the movies and watch such popular gems as the movie SAW where innocent people are tortured and dismembered in very graphic detail. After the movie he can return home and get all of the porn he wants via the Internet . So no need for a relationship with another human being. Feeling isolated and worthless with no moral groundings or strong male role models, discipline In the home you can see why this happening with increasing frequency. Too easy to use the mental illness excuse because it removes all responsibility. This POS went into a elementary school after traveling from another state for the sole purpose of murdering children. He was seeking notoriety and celebrity status like the previous shooters.
Remember our POTUS and Nobel Peace recipient said on 06/13/2008 "If the bring a knife I'll bring a gun"
No wonder our society has so much violence
I did a bit more fact checking, and it looks like I had some bad data (a Canadian friend had told me they had more guns per capita). Canada does indeed have legal gun ownership. One must take an education course/test in order to own guns. But the USA does have more guns per capita.
i saw this quote on another site and i thought it was interesting:
"Guns don't kill people - people do. By the same token, planes don't kill people - people flying them into buildings do. And yet, I recall that we immediately and decisively worked to keep deranged people from gaining possession of planes when a handful of those people used them as tools of mass murder; indeed, we made it much more difficult for the overwhelming majority of peaceful, law-abiding citizens to board a plane."
I think it is impossible to stop every act of murder regardless if one victim or 100. I believe there are measures that deter and possibly prevent these types of acts. We never know how many individuals have tried to do some horrific act but couldn't follow through due to law, purchase restrictions, or a responsible employee who prevented it with their act and no knowledge of the person's intent. Is there an answer? I have not heard, read, or seen one being offered here, the news, politicians, etc. At this time there is no 100% mechanism to prevent this type of act....and if there ever is, I don't know if living our life would be any where near what it is today.
I pray for the families involved. It is a sad. And I would think everyone will hug there kids a little harder and longer.
No analysis from me, just shock and extreme sadness. Joining with those in our community on their knees.
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Isn't it interesting (more like blatently obvious) that virtually no discussion about what role the social environs young people are experiencing plays in these very sad happenings. Many simply want to focus on the end item result and the instrument involved, firearms, instead of what, in my opinion, is at the heart of the problem -- the systematic degradation of social values and desensitizing of the value of human life. This issue gets zero press and meaningful disscusion. The absolute crap coming out of hollywood, internet, and the digital gaming companies is ridiculous. Kids being constantly exposed to this are bound to develop a very different view of the value of their fellow man and a distorted perspective on humanity as a whole.
Tell you what, when Barry and Ms. Fienstein start adressing this issue with the seriouness they apply to gun control, I'll listen. Until then, I know they and their league of anti-gun advocates could care less about solving the real core problems resulting in these very sad events.
I believe my posts have explained my solution quite clearly. Our mental health system sucks and people are allowed to roam the streets who shouldn't be on the streets. People don't want to pay taxes to keep jails and mental institutions open so as I said, you get what you get.
Cut backs, due to the lack of funds, are letting criminals out of jail and the insane out of mental facilities. Example: recently a number of criminals were let loose in the Eugene area because there was no money to keep them incarcerated. They also cut back on law enforcement officers. Within hours, one of the criminals who was released committed a crime and was back in jail.
I know for a fact that the step brother of one of my friends should be locked up because he is nuts. But our system continues to let him out of a mental institution and dump him on his mother until he goes off his meds again and goes looney toons and they lock him up for a few days again. Then they let him out due to lack of funds. Sooner or later, this guy can end up killing someone.
Read my lips, start paying the damned taxes required to keep criminals and the insane away from the general population. I don't know how I can be more clear in my suggestion for correcting the problem.
Again, from a professional who dealt with criminals and the mentally ill, there are people walking the streets who should not be walking the streets.
Boy howdy, when it comes to paying taxes, people hide their head in the sand and ignore the obvious. No funds, no jails, no police, no mental hospitals... criminals and crazies on the streets committing crime and murder. Every time there is a referendum to increase taxes to enlarge the city jail and keep police officers on the job, the voters in this town vote it down. The same holds true for funding mental facilities.
I guess it's easier to claim no one has a solution than to accept the idea of paying more taxes to fund the facilities, mental health professionals and police officers.
Freestoneangler, the contention that somehow hollywood is behind this or the entertainment industry is causing the ruin of American youth is misguided and wrong. In the Graph below you can see Assault Deaths per year in the us vs OECD countries excluding Mexico and Estonia. If you were going to say anything about declining moral standards etc, you would have to say that basically ended in 1980, and since then we have done a better job at discouraging violent crime. 1980 basically coincides with the widespread sale of Atari video games...
If anything Hollywood and the vast internet has helped co-opt marginalized kids into the mainstream. Aka Dan Savage's It Get's Better campaign, the airing of shows with openly gay and accepted characters like Modern Family and Glee. Alternatively the conscious decisions of Hollywood to not glamorize smoking any more and subsequent drops in smoking prevalence with all of the associated declines in lung cancer deaths that follow. You could also add that the Internet, the Free Press, and to a lesser extent Hollywood has correctly helped point out cores of pedophilic decay in the Catholic Church and the Boy Scouts. Bastions in the past of "Citizenship." Inquiries that began, particularly in the case of the Catholic Church in Boston and elsewhere and spread to places like Ireland, who were slow to adopt their own inquiries into abuses.
Sure take swipes at Obama, he's not without blame, particularly in the notions of Drone attacks on civilians in foreign countries or surveillance efforts here among US citizens. Then again Michelle Obama's efforts to get kids fit and active parallels declining obesity rates in kids in major cities. The first time we've seen that....
I will give you this though, kids these days are more connected, more interactive, share more with one another and participate more in each others virtual lives through facebook, online gaming and so on. They may lack physical connections and all the awkwardness and risk that comes with that and that remains a necessary part of growing up. and that may be the new norm for them. But so far you can see on the graph, there is no uptick since facebook became ubiquitous among the young (say 2008 on...) in violent crime. If anything the rates are still dropping...
for most of them it's like Bowie wrote in Changes....
And these children that you spit onAs they try to change their worldsAre immune to your consultationsThey're quite awareof what they're going through
My worry isn't with those kids who goof off online, or even with first person shooter games like Halo or Call of Duty, it's with the ones that CAN'T connect with others, online or otherwise. The kids that remain isolated, deluded, depressed and paranoid. You may be right that in the past those kids would have been co-opted into a tighter physical community, which has declined, perhaps with the advent of suburbia.
So then we need new age ways of keeping tabs on them- are they active online? If so, how? If not, why not? Where are the parents in watching what they do? And how is it that we as a community- online or otherwise- recognize the difference between the normal loneliness and insecurities of growing up vs the pathological versions that hurt all of us?
On another note...
I used to date a wonderful girl whose dad was a fly-fisherman and artist of some renown. This was pre-internet. He lived in the hills on a wonderful trout stream and fished it every day. He painted images of that river, the fish & the flies that any of us would want to hang on the wall. But up there in his cabin on the river he took to drink and no doubt battled deep depressions. I can't help but think he would have been right at home here on WFF or a site like it. Feeling connected, in his community of peers, fly-fisherman who share all the ridiculousness that we do. A place like this, a forum for guys and girls to talk about guns and fishing and share jokes and fishing tips and stories and so on is exactly the kind of inspirational shot in the arm that might have given him some ideas that didn't spiral down into the miseries and loneliness that eventually killed him. I think about that a lot, in part because I know for me that goofing off on WFF has certainly given back far more inspiration and encouragement to me than I would have ever got on my own...
There's no decline in culture as far as I see it, it's just different and in many ways we are far richer and far better off mentally because of it.