NFR: The state of the forum

Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by Allison, Jun 19, 2009.

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  1. jcnewbie

    jcnewbie Member

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    Sorry Coach, guess I hid the sarcasm too well – it was all tongue-in-cheek….I’ll try to be more obvious next time.

    The point was to illustrate the extremes of response by both sides of the “endless debate/debacle” of “entitlement rights vs. earned rights” here. It frequently reaches such levels of absurdity that I can’t restrain myself. Other times the advice can be astonishingly helpful and candid. Usually the latter is more beneficial to a new(bie) in the sport of fly fishing.

    I recognize that it is the aim of many here to restrict or constrain information so as to dis-courage those new to the game because they think (?) there’s already too many intruders weasling into their game of fly fishing anyway. Then there are others who have repeatedly demonstrated nothing more than just an old-fashioned mean streak, jealousy or possessiveness in their responses to inquiries, apparently believing that the less others know, the better. I also recognize that how an inquiry is framed or presented often influences the reaction and there are likely as many that don’t know how to do that in order to achieve the best results for the inquirer, as there are those that don’t have a clue on how to enhance the pleasure & enjoyment of others in regards to any pursuit.

    Not to get too far off the track here, allow me to present a few examples of “Entitlement rights vs. Earned rights!” If I were to hire you as my guide/mentor for some bonefishing in Hawaii, would you take me to the least productive locations and advocate the least productive flies & techniques? Probably not. Why, because that would obviously not be in your best interest. Why? Because the nature of successful guiding services is largely word-of-mouth – in spite of the large sums spent by some on glossy advertising! Now lets assume (dangerous, I know) that awhile later after booking a few more trips with you and other local guides, I decide that “guiding bone fishing trips” is for me. So I buy a boat and all the gear that goes with bone fishing (after all, I’ve learned from the best - AND I am quite wealthy) and commence guiding and catching fish, in the same areas that you use, for myself and my clients. This is, I suspect, sheer blasphemy and in total violation of all the written and unwritten rules….but I digress:

    Should I be in fear of my life for this infringement upon your and others “sacred, earned territory” and dread the inevitable “contract” being issued by the “Protectors?”

    What about the River Guide who provides the same services for his paying clientele and later sees his client on the same river with his own drift boat (or not) catching fish like crazy – because he was taught “where and how” by the “best?”

    Do we need to overtly or covertly solicit the approval of the established community of “whomever, whatever, wherever” to exercise our freedoms? Or is it okay to exercise them as long as we don’t presume to ask anybody any specific questions about anything that pertains to anything the “askee” might know anything about unless we’ve paid that somebody for their services?

    I mean, where’s the line-of-demarcation between “entitled and not-entitled?” Is it clearly marked so all can tell at a glance where it is and what it looks like? I wonder because it seems that if it was all so clear there would be no further need for any questions from anyone about anything – we’d all just know the truth, sort of “divine-like”, ya know? Well, except for the blind & stupid of course.

    To be more specific, exactly when is it considered sufficient to have, “paid one’s dues?” By shredding countless waders, bush wacking how many miles into lost & forgotten lakes ‘n streams, burned how many gallons of expensive fuel and how many times to have been rebuffed by how many “serious anglers” in the endless quest for decent fishing? When does one graduate from the “un-serious, un-entitled novice” to the seasoned veteran angler where all good things come at will? When the novice stops asking questions? When the “salts” stop insulting and demeaning him? When he’s made 1.31 million crappy casts – with the wrong fly in the wrong water at the wrong times with the wrong presentation? Does the novice transform into one who commands respect when he stops asking questions? Or just stops asking stupid uninformed questions?

    Maybe when he’s gone through 3 wives because he spent waaaay too much time fly fishing and left his wifey’s alone to ponder their choice of husbands too often – misplaced passions perhaps? Or now that he has no wives, he has lots of time to fly fish….but no real passion for it anymore wishing instead he had the company of a good woman on cold nights. Let’s see now, the last one was 25 years ago and all three were in the first 12 years….and he’s had lots of time to fish since the last one….and ponder his choices and his passions.

    Just askin’, Coach because I have enormous respect for your opinions on nearly everything that I’ve read here on the forum. If you’ve written any books, I haven’t read those yet.

    Respectfully,

    Jc (Jon)
    BTW, I’d like to book a bone fishing trip with you one of these days….seriously!
     
  2. zen leecher aka bill w

    zen leecher aka bill w born to work, forced to fish

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    No bitching here but I'd like to hear about the Coach's cutthroat pond.
     
  3. Hal Eckert

    Hal Eckert Member

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    As many of said before "Nothing replaces time on the water", prior to internet thats what we did, went fishing as much as possible learning over time how various rivers fished well during the runs, usually took a few years to start to figure out one river.

    :beer1::thumb:

    HE
     
  4. Coach Duff

    Coach Duff Banned or Parked

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    Well said Hal, well said. Coach
     
  5. Coach Duff

    Coach Duff Banned or Parked

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    JC all I said was this in my typical long winded rambling half baked way:

    Ask all you want. If those asked say they would rather not share that info, than have the class to not then turn it around and start bashing them, something that happens far too often on all of these sites by folks who "WANT IT NOW" Veruca Salt style. It's your right to ask anything you want, and it's their right to give as much information as they want. Simple shit, but seldom followed without a bunch of bitching, whining and foot stomping. Be happy with whatever information you get newbies, before the internet anglers still with kids, a job, a wife and the same shit we have today. And since information was earnred they seldom handed it around like a paper bag with a wine bottle in it like today on the internet. Coach
     
  6. Mark Moore

    Mark Moore Just a Member

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    IMHO this really is an issue more symbolic of our culture than our forum. I think people these days tend to think that because they can afford to go buy all the gear required for our sport that they automatically should become accomplished Fly fishermen. People are impatient, easily frustrated and lazy about most accomplishment in our culture and it is sad...and scary.

    I enjoy getting new gear about as much as I do catching fish, but my greatest joy in Fly fishing is learning. Learning how to use the gear, how to read the water, how to identify insects, learning about local customs, how people in a particular area expect you to treat their resource, how to safely walk in areas full of rattlesnakes. Learning how weather affects fishing and how not be scared to death when I have been catching trout during a Hex hatch and I realize that I can't see the boat launch from the middle of the lake on a moonless night.

    The people who set this great sport out for us over the last several generations, I think, understood this was an endeavor for mature men and women. People who would preserve and protect the culture and resources there within. I suspect they could tell at a glance which newcomers could be trusted with their hard won knowledge... and which could not.

    Just because someone can go to Home Depot or Western Tool and buy all of the tools required to build fine furniture certainly does not qualify them to do so. If I see someone willing to learn and be taught I gladly share with them even the most coveted techniques I possess because I enjoy watching people gain achievement. As well, I understand it is not my skill to hoard but only to steward.

    However, if I suspect this person will take this knowledge and use it to harm my field of endeavor somehow, or harm himself, I will gently or maybe not gently send him away.

    I guess the concept is be grateful for what people are willing to share with you, and work really hard. A good father would never give away every secret to his son knowing that knowledge earned is knowledge learned. Otherwise he is just teaching his son to be a good consumer.
     
  7. jcnewbie

    jcnewbie Member

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    iagree
    Agreed.

    But the question remains unanswered; when is it permissible for someone to ask a reasonable question? How much “time on the water” is necessary before a question asked is provided a civil and respectful answer? Or is it that if you’ve spent enough “time on the water” you will have no need to ask such dumb questions?

    Is information only to be slowly gleaned over years and years from personal experience and close friends or family members who happen to be in the know about such matters and take pity on the poor sucker who walked into this voracious “fly-trap” called fly fishing?

    We live in a different world than we did 30, 40, 50 or more years ago….and yes, I miss it very much in many respects. It isn’t possible to go back in time and find things unchanged….everything has changed and it will never be the same. I remember when kids and teenagers addressed all adults with Sir or Ma’am or Mr. or Mrs., unless it was mom or dad or Aunt Bessie and even then at times it was appropriate to only use Sir or Ma’am. There was civility in dealings with one another, less deception and bullshit. Important disagreements were settled with a simple fistfight between boys (even men). No gunfights, no drive-by shootings. If you got your face slapped by a girl you most likely deserved it. A time when shattered men from both World Wars came home and didn’t whine about PTSD or missing limbs, or that “society” owed them a damn thing…..they just went on with life and built this country.

    PTSD is a very real and frightening thing and yes, men from the “real wars” had it too, they just didn’t know what to call it when they would wake from a sound sleep, screaming obscenities, drenched in sweat, fists clenched, eyes wide in terror, biting their own tongues till they bled in relived agonies. The look of incomprehensible fear on the face of their loved ones in the bed next to them (we all know that husbands & wives did not sleep together in the same bed, right?) as they awoke to the writhing, sweating, screaming terror next to them. They just called ‘em, nightmares back then. You lived with it and you dealt with it and went on. Yep, a few cracked – totally. Most didn’t. I think people were made of different stuff then. Solid stuff. Stuff that didn’t break easily. Stuff that would get you through the worst shit you could imagine – sometimes with a gentle kiss on the forehead, sometimes with good hard whuppin’ on the ass….to ensure you wouldn’t make the same mistake again….and usually you didn’t.

    I didn’t realize how much I missed those days until fairly recently as I creep with accelerating pace into my “Sunset or Autumn or Golden Years” as we are so fond of saying at AARP…..take yer pick.

    In order to shorten this up a bit, let me just say that I have made many mistakes on this forum in the short time I’ve been here and most I’ve learned from….but just so you know, I’m way too shy to be kissed on the forehead and way too old to be whupped on the ass, so don’t waste yer time in those departments. I don’t whine, I don’t expect somethin’ for nothin’ and damn sure don’t need pity. Life is what it is – mostly what you’ve made of it….with a few exceptions. Here’s a cute one I read the other day: “Young people may know the rules, old ones know the exceptions!”

    My one major regret (well okay, more than one) is that I didn’t start fly fishing sooner….so I wouldn’t have to ask so many stupid questions. Sorry, truly sorry ‘bout that!! But again, that’s life and I made it that way, Se la Vie or something like that.

    Cheers to all. Gotta go get un-steamed now….maybe some Crown Royal will do it.

    I just plan on keepin’ on till there ain’t no more mistakes left to be made!

    Regards & “Tight Lines”

    Jc (aka, Jon)
     
  8. Coach Duff

    Coach Duff Banned or Parked

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    But the question remains unanswered; when is it permissible for someone to ask a reasonable question? How much “time on the water” is necessary before a question asked is provided a civil and respectful answer? Or is it that if you’ve spent enough “time on the water” you will have no need to ask such dumb questions? JC

    ALL questions are okay and permissible. But when the person asked says, "I aint giving that information out." then the person asking has to have the class to end it there. That's respect. You don't start ranting and raving about how the angler who politely said they don't want to share that is an elitist asshole. You have the ability to realize that the information you are seeking may have taken that angler 14 years to gather (or 14 hours for that matter) and they consider it hard earned and something they would like to keep to themselves. Like I said I share top ten spots with good people no matter what experience, but if I feel they are pushing me or have bad intentions I give them as shitty a "spot" as I can with a smile. What are bad intentions you ask? Those guys who really can't fish worth a shit, but just want to accumulate "knowledge" so they can throw it all over fly shops and websites to seem connected and in the know. They talk the game like old pros all over the place but couldn't hook a fish if their lives depended on it. They talk 100 foot casts but throw 26. You'll never actually see those types fishing on the waters they claim they know so well. They just regurgitate shit they hear, so the detriment of those who actually fish by putting pressure in places they will never deal with. I know more than a few of these cats and give them nothing ever. They usually figure it out pretty quick. Tight lines JC and keep making mistakes. It's great to have you around contributing in many different ways. Coach
     
  9. Chris Bellows

    Chris Bellows Your Preferred WFF Poster

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    i think what many people are discovering is that the internet truly has changed the world, including fly fishing. the information is right there, in searchable form in forums and many other forms across the world wide web.

    i'm not an old-timer by any stretch of the imagination, but i do have some recollection of fishing in washington before the explosion of the internet. of course, that time also was when there were many more rivers open... which meant less concentration of anglers regardless of the internet.

    now, one can ask what the best flows on a rainforest river is for winter-runs... and someone will actually respond with detailed cfs info and post a link to the usgs site. people will even ask silly questions such as "is it worth going to x river or area this week?"... like there is a bad time to go fishing, or that dealing with bad conditions and skunkings teaches you as much or more than going when everyone else says it's gonna be great.

    compounding this explosion of information is less water to fish and shorter seasons, which only add to a gold-rush mentality. while not fly fishing, i witnessed the total destruction of the north coast halibut fishery in a span of 3-4 years from changes to regulations, an explosion of new fishermen, and easy access to coordinates... and then a spiraling of shorter and shorter seasons creating a mad rush that gets worse every year. i was certainly not blameless since i was running trips and promoting the fishery.

    the internet can have a positive role, but mainly through using numbers to push fish-friendly politics. the speed at which people can respond to fishery threats is astounding now compared to 10 years ago. i know of certain forums that forbid and will delete reports on smaller streams because they cannot handle the additional pressure (these streams are already crazy busy).... of course it's like trying to fix a bursting dam with your finger.

    i don't hate the internet or internet forums, but i think knowing some background might help those who wonder why people won't give them detailed info or are a bit rude when you post specific details (many times posting hero fishing reports to make yourself feel better, not to really help others... be honest - you know it's true).
     
  10. Sean Beauchamp

    Sean Beauchamp Hot and Heavy at yer 6

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    ive met a bunch of cool people off this site that i fish with regularly (or try too). some of you have taught me a lot (both directly and unknowingly) and helped me out when i was stumped. cheers! ive caught some sweet deals in the classifieds as well as sold some stuff hanging around. some of you make me laugh. or tell a great story. or ask good questions. and some of you are so effing douchey that it is amazing you dont get kicked in the sack by your own mother upon opening your eyes every morning. and its awesome. i love to sit back and mock your douchefoolery.

    ive been on this site since 01 i think. for some reason my member since.... thing isnt correct. anyways over the years this gay thing we call the forum has been a great thing. if only for the laughs, the fish porn and the cool dudes ive met. everyone keep on keepin on. let the haters hate. the bitches bitch. and the playaz play.

    fish more, type less biznitches
     
  11. Tim Lockhart

    Tim Lockhart Working late at The Office

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    Sean, can I send that to SUB POP...you need to get discovered.

    BTW, you weren't born yet in '01 :clown:
     
  12. Matthew Gulbranson

    Matthew Gulbranson Resident Swinger

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    iagree
    Thanks Sean, well said :D
     
  13. Coach Duff

    Coach Duff Banned or Parked

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    Sub Pop? No, I think Sean is a better fit with Death Row. :D Coach

    PS And when you can tell me who Spoonie Gee, Kool Herc and Afrika Bambaattaa were then I'll give you a little street cred myself Sean. It's never too late to go old school and find out where your roots are beeatches!!!! :eek: :beer2:Coach
     
  14. CoastalCutt

    CoastalCutt Member

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    Sean, the douchefoolery word combo is kick ass, Keep at it man.
     
  15. Old Man

    Old Man Just an Old Man

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    I really don't understand this thing about giving away secret places. Most of the bigger rivers in this state are 50 to 75 miles long. What I usually do is list a river but it is up to the person to find his own place to catch fish.

    I listed about 16 to 17 different place to fish on another thread. These are all in the "regs" and on many maps in the area. All a person has to do is go to it. I'm not telling what rock to stand on. That one has to do by hisself.

    Am I giving away secrets??? I don't think so as when I used to fish these places I always had to put up with other peoples trash. Even when I fished Day creek down in the canyon I would find what people left behind.

    But when I find a little gem of a small creek, I tend to keep that to myself. If I had to bust thru the bushes to find it then you all can to.

    Jim
     
  16. jcnewbie

    jcnewbie Member

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    Coach, let me say for the record that you are one of the more useful contributors of practical information on this forum and because of that I value whatever you wish to provide. I don't fault you personally if you decline to provide GPS coordinates or X marks the spot. And no, I ain't suckin' up either.....

    Yes, I've already met a few of that description myself in my short time in this sport. Some of them even have useful, instructive information to impart but it takes so much work to sift through all their sefl-aggrandizing bullshit that it soon reaches a point of diminishing returns. Fortunately these are relatively rare instances and greatly overshadowed by the many others I've had the pleasure meeting and interacting with.

    To the best of my recollection (flawless of course), I've never ranted on this issue or called anyone an asshole though I admit I have been tempted at times....but have chosen instead to employ my somewhat distorted sense of humor to poke a little fun at the extremes. Sometimes it's too obscure or vague and many don't get it....but that's just the way my mind works....vague & obscure! :D

    As for the Internet; yep, is sure does have some advantages - in research, education & communication but it also allows many horrible things to occur with an unprecedented degree of anonymity - ever watch "Predators", I think it's called, on TV (Dateline NBC?)? That is so sickening that I can't even continue in that vein here....besides, it's off-the-track anyhow.

    To summarize, I hope to one day be knowledgeable enough to contribute something of value back to this forum and the amazing game of fly fishing....but I have a looonng way to go.

    Tight Lines to all.

    Jon (Jc)
     
  17. Reelucky

    Reelucky New Member

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    I wanted to throw my 2 cents in.

    I'm very new to this forum. I have read back a bit. Yes, it seems there is a good ol' boys club in here. Yes, it seems there is chest pounding going on but that could mean alot of things about those people. It happens on every forum. It's cheap entertainment.:clown:

    I am 40. I fly fish for me. I tie flies for me. I will post how I did and what I saw for others to hopefully see what worked or what didn't in a certain situation. Even that isn't a given. Ever fish next to a person using the same fly, line, depth and he catches more fish?:hmmm:

    I enjoy this forum for what it is. Although, it is irritating when I post a report and people tell me why I didn't catch fish or about where I fished and how successful they were a week ago. A report is a report. If I wanted to know how everybody else fished then I would ask. What a person does with the report is up to them.


    I personally love getting people hooked on fly fishing. On learning anything new. I would rather take a newby out and I get skunked while he/she catches all the fish.:ray1:
     
  18. Jonathan Walkenberg

    Jonathan Walkenberg Member

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    well said Mark.
     
  19. jcnewbie

    jcnewbie Member

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    iagree...absolutely!
     
  20. Tim Garton

    Tim Garton Member

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    This thread wouldn't be complete without a appropriate fishing report.

    Proceed to GPS coordinates:

    47 deg 36' 28.02" N
    122 deg 20' 28.34" W

    Stand next to bronze pig

    Extract wallet

    Extend greenbacks

    Fish will literally be thrown to you.

    Side note: Beware of busker and PETA obstructions.

    Guaranteed sure fire fish getter hole!

    :thumb:
     
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