(NFR) You won't believe this......

Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by Jason Baker, Oct 22, 2006.

  1. RockyMtnC&R

    RockyMtnC&R Banned or Parked


    Ok, lets break em down shall we? to /examine/as/a/ publication/ or/ film/ in/ order/ to/ suppress/ or/ delete/ any/ contents/ considered/ objectionable/

    I dont think that any of the words used in his supplied definition would be considered as having changed over the years.

    Ahhh, debating politics with values based voters. Often trying, always humorous...next?
     
  2. Snake

    Snake tryin' not to get too comfortable

    You won't believe this......

    Thanks. I've always enjoyed a spirited intelligent debate.
    So it's actually worse than I implied?? In that case, I truly am sorry and saddened. What a waste. But I did say "over 1,000", so technically I wasn't incorrect.
    Actually, I do agree that graphic depictions of violence and war have no place in the mass media, but the current generation of teens is probably so numb to that sort of thing I doubt if anything would really shock them (except actually being in a war, and seeing first-hand brutality that isn't "hollywood-ized"). It's pretty rare to meet a soldier who has seen war who isn't against it.
    Yeah, the idea of innocent women and kids being killed (or "collateral damage", if you insist on sanitizing and justifying the idea) in an unneccesary (IMHO) war kind of gets me riled up, and I don't apologize for it.
    Why don't we see the body bags or coffins of American soldiers coming back from Iraq? Censorship is a two-way street, and it seems like the Government learned it's lesson. The anti-war protests in the 60's didn't really start to take off until the news was filled with pictures of body bags coming back from 'Nam.

    My original post, though sarcastic, was only meant to point out the fact that the concepts of "humanity and restraint" and "war" are kind of at odds with each other.

    I'm not looking for a fist fight, I'm just throwing my 2 pennies into the ring.

    War. What is it good for? Absolutely nothin'. (except huge $$ for war-profiteers)
     
  3. Flyborg

    Flyborg Active Member

    I don't dispute that words and meanings are relative; however the fact remains that CNN did practice some self-censorship and nobody arguing against the showing of the video has acknowledged this. In the same sensationalist verbage that the media itself uses, people are conveniently ignoring the details in order to over-hype the issue. Saying things like:

    are fairly moot considering CNN censored out the actual death. Do I think it was necessary to show the video at all? Probably not. But if you're going to argue against the media's right to show graphically deplorable footage, at least do so without utilizing the same fallable logic as the media itself.
     
  4. RockyMtnC&R

    RockyMtnC&R Banned or Parked

    You won't believe this......

    That reminds me of the time, 2 years ago, when I was offered to train for a position with Halliburton working for one of their "pest control" companies that served the various US military bases in Iraq. I applied at the encouragement of 2 highschool friends already employed by the company bragging about their endless cash supply each time they would make a return visit for a holiday. It seems somebody with NO EXPERIENCE in pest control can go make $150,000/yr(and only $50,000 of that is taxable if you stay the entire year), setting up traps and spraying chemicals. WHY SO MUCH you ask? It's simple, tax payer dollars are endless. Halliburton isn't paying these guys, WE ARE! It definitely pays to be part of the good ol boy network! This war is all about money channeling, PERIOD.

    Therefore, lets start showing images of US troops getting dropped so that the otherwise complacent American majority will get their fat butts up off the couch and demand and end to this "WAR."
     
  5. Split Bamboo

    Split Bamboo Member

    First off I am not trying to piss anyone off with this discussion. Sometimes the discussion of controversial subjects gets people pretty heated. I don't mean to personally attack anyone, and I am trying to be civil. If anyone felt I personally attacked them I appologize. If I disagree with your facts or opinions, please don't take this as an attack on you. Also, if my lame attempt at humor at the expense of the English language offended you, I'm sorry. I was poking fun at the words, not which team you play for (that's another Seinfield reference)

    I looked for civilian casualty info from orginizations that would not be considered friendly to the current administration. I didn't find any specifics from Amnesty International, the Red Cross, or the UN. But this site http://www.iraqbodycount.org/database/ It seems to use pretty well reasoned methodology, and is clearly against the war, check out the bio's of the orginization. The site reports Iraqi civilian casualties between 44,000 and 49,000, since the start of the US led invasion. The vast majority of the recent deaths appear to be innocent civilians killed by terrorists, or Iraqi police and army recruits killed by terrorists. Any civilian death is one too many, just like any American casualty is one too many.

    I think we can all agree that war is a terrible thing, and no sane person is in favor of war.

    Andrew
     
  6. Snake

    Snake tryin' not to get too comfortable

    A study reported in The Lancet, a well-respected medical journal, put the number of Iraqi deaths at approx. 100,000, although the authors conceded that the data had "limited precision". Still, it's gotta be tens of thousands of innocents killed.

    "Since early 2002, violence was by far the main cause of death, linked to coalition air strikes in about 95 per cent of cases where people died by the intentional act of others."

    Notice the report didn't mention "insurgents" as the primary cause of death, but "coalition air strikes".

    Maybe this "collateral damage" will justify a "surge of democracy" in the region. Yeah, I'm not holding my breath.......
     
  7. Citori

    Citori Piscatorial Engineer

    That the war is unpopular is not news. Politicizing the death of one american soldier is unamerican, but somehow now PC. Bush bashing is certainly not new, or news, but is in vogue.

    The questions I keep repeating to myself as I listen to and watch political advertisements, and as I peruse this thread is this - What is the correct course of action? How do we keep safe on our own soil? We have a sect, a religion, a whole world full of people who live to see americans die. How do we best protect ourselves and our loved ones from them?

    I disagree with war, but I am thankful and grateful for those who go in harms way so the rest of us can live to discuss it and lead "normal" lives. As much as I hate and disagree with what is going on now, I cannot support a change until and unless there is a proposal for a way to move forward that improves the situation, and does not give terror a free pass to foment terror on our own soil.

    So, disagree as you will, but pause to thank those who protect our right and ability to do so, and respect them for what they do. Politicizing the death of an american soldier is unamerican - patently disrespectful to the victim and his loved ones, particularly when the images are supplied by the enemy - but standard fare for a liberal press whose agenda is political engineering, at any cost. I, for one, will make up my own mind, without blindly following an administration, or a national press with an agenda.
     
  8. Snake

    Snake tryin' not to get too comfortable

    I have nothing but respect and admiration for those men and women who go into harm's way to protect my freedoms, it's just their bosses calling the plays I have a problem with.
    So how do you make rational personal decisions without input, and how do you gauge the amount of 'spin' in that input?

    I've been paying attention to the BBC and CBC (British and Canadian Broadcasting Corps) more lately, because they seem to be insulated from the Washington beltway spin cycle.

    I geuss that's probably un-american though.:rolleyes:
     
  9. Citori

    Citori Piscatorial Engineer

    So my curiousity gets the best of me after I read the article. I go looking on the CNN site for the clip, and find it. Here's the icing on the cake. The video is NOT of the sniper kills (there are a few seconds of the scenes, but it is video of a video screen playing the tape), it is of an ex-US Marine sniper's analysis of the tape sent by the terrorists. The tapes were orchestrated by the terrorists to maximize political impact of the events. The video was taken by observers on the ground coordinated with the snipers shooting from different angles, distances.

    Bottom line, the terrorists were videotaping themselved in their acts of terror, and rather than distribute them themselves, they let CNN do it for them, so they could get better distribution.

    And CNN did it!

    javascript:cnnVideo('play','/video/us/2006/10/19/tuchman.ca.sniper.expert.cnn','2006/10/26');

    Words fail me. In the words of Pogo (written by Al Capp, many years ago), "We have met the enemy, and they are us"

    You will have to excuse me, I need to go take a shower.
     
  10. Split Bamboo

    Split Bamboo Member

    The Lancet article actually puts the number at 650,000.

    The US led coalition began the attack in March of 2003.

    The Lancet article actually credits less than 15% of the deaths to coalition airstrikes.

    The Iraqi Body Count website refutes the Lancet article pretty convincingly.
    http://www.iraqbodycount.org/press/pr14.php

    As Snake point out, the Lancet is a well respected medical journal. This is far different from news article. Publishing in a scientific journal, by definition, is an invitation for criticism and peer review. That is just the way science works.

    As I mentioned before the body count website is against the war, read their conclusion of the Lancet article

    "Do the American people need to believe that 600,000 Iraqis have been killed before they can turn to their leaders and say "enough is enough"? The number of certain civilian deaths that has been documented to a basic standard of corroboration by "passive surveillance methods" surely already provides all the necessary evidence to deem this invasion and occupation an utter failure at all levels"
     
  11. Citori

    Citori Piscatorial Engineer

    Snake, I never said "without input", I said "without blindly following". Trouble is, there is too much input, and a severe shortage of answers.

    I for one use many sources, but I attempt to find documentable print media, and then research the footnoted sources. Right now, Bob Woodward's latest book is top of my bedside stand. My master's prof had a favorite saying, opinions are like a$$holes, everybody's got one. There is a heavy fertilizer factor, but there is some semi-reliable information out there. But, like I said, few answers. Lots more armchair quarterbacking. As for unamerican, you will have to search your own conscience for that answer.
     
  12. Snake

    Snake tryin' not to get too comfortable

    ALL journalism should be subjected to peer review and criticism. Otherwise, how can the average person judge the veracity of what they are reading/seeing, which ultimately goes on to shapes their beliefs?

    Admittedly, I spewed my facts after a quick google search and brief perusal of the literature, trying to get my info right. Again, how do you REALLY know what's going on if you can't trust the source?

    Apologies if my numbers were way off. It wasn't an intentional left-wing ploy.

    Good discussion, though. But I've had enough of it, and now I just want to go fishing.
     
  13. Split Bamboo

    Split Bamboo Member

    iagree

    What is really pissing me off right now is the Seahawks!:mad:
     
  14. chadk

    chadk Be the guide...


    Give me a break. "Bushees"??? Because there are a varity of perspectives on this, you choose to label those that are opposed to your line of thinking as "Bushees"... You are right about one thing. So much for liberal sterotypes - you know, the one about "open minded liberals"... :hmmm:
     
  15. Snake

    Snake tryin' not to get too comfortable

    Ahh, give him some slack, it's his first posting, and I don't think he's attuned to the nuances of "public discussion".

    At least he questioned the rules of the forum before throwing his words in, and nobody responded, so I'd be willing to let it slide this time. I mean, here we are flagrantly violating the rules of the site, by discussing political issues strictly unrelated to fly fishing, but it's been civil and enlightening (so far), so the moderators have let it go on.

    But hey "RockyMntC&R" (and everybody else reading this)....... before you post something that has your blood pressure in the danger zone, and your fists clenched over the keyboard, let it rest for at least a day before you throw it out for public consumption. Think about how your words will resonate with those reading them. Don't be a dick, or nobody will take you seriously, and yeah, you might get booted from the site.

    If you have something to say, say it logically and intelligently, but don't "take the argument to the man", or assume that your beliefs and precepts are any better than anyone else's.

    Play well with others , or the moderator will pull your soapbox out from under your feet in a second, and rightly so.
     
  16. Split Bamboo

    Split Bamboo Member

    Snake....my new drinking and debating bud!:beer2:

    But I gotta disagree with you man and disregard your advice!

    :mad: My blood pressure is up, and my fists are clenched.....stupid Sehawks game!:beathead:

    Andrew


    "I have never developed indigestion from eating my words" - W. Churchill
     
  17. Snake

    Snake tryin' not to get too comfortable

    Ahh, I never did walk away from a free beer or a lively debate, and I got the scars to prove it, if not the indigestion!, from eating my own words.:rofl: :rofl:

    Boo, you gotta have the best closing quotes of anyone on the whole site!

    I threw this to Boo/Andrew in a PM:

    "Maybe we'll run into each other on a river some day, and we'll be able to see that what unites us is much stronger than what divides us."

    We really all are in this together, and brothers and sisters
    at the core.
     
  18. Split Bamboo

    Split Bamboo Member

    Thanks, if only they were my quotes! But since we have moved this discussion into the realm of drinking....here are two of my favorites!

    Andrew

    "I may be drunk, Miss, but in the morning I will be sober and you will still be ugly."

    "I have taken more out of alcohol than alcohol has taken out of me."

    Both from Winston Churchill, imagin getting quotes like those from todays politicians!
     
  19. RockyMtnC&R

    RockyMtnC&R Banned or Parked

    Chadk:
    EVERYONE uses labels, stereotypes and generalizations to some degree. To what extent, and whether or not they use them consciously, or subconsciously is the only uncertain variable. I guess I might have wrongfully assumed the average person that would be on the other side of the fence with respect to this issue is a Bushee, just as you wrongfully assumed I am a liberal. I am NOT a liberal! I am VERY middle of the road. I believe the republicans are a party with BAD ideas, and the democrats are a party with NO ideas!(Lewis Black)

    Snake:
    I am new to WFF, NOT, posting on public forums. Also, im a big boy, and can defend myself, thanks. I realize you probably didn't mean any disrespect, but you did come off a little bit patronizing, FYI. Not a big deal though, this is a public forum, and if I'm gonna dish it out, I gotta be willing to take it, just like everyone else. "The message, not the messenger" seems to be a pretty common theme around here(there is even an entire thread on it, lol). Why isn't it, "if you cant take the heat, get out of the kitchen?" As long as nobody curses, threatens, or violates a declared rule as outlined by site admin., I say BRING IT ON!
     
  20. tythetier

    tythetier Fish Slayer

    Mission Acomplished......
     

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