Nisqually eats another boat

Discussion in 'Watercraft' started by Jon Borcherding, Jul 10, 2007.

  1. APS

    APS New Member

    Jon ~
    I'm curious - can you tell me how many years or generations (figure 3,4, years for the wild fish?) would it take the tribal fishery to wipe out the wild stocks? It's been thirty years since the Boldt decision, so are they just getting going or what's taking them so long?

  2. Jon Borcherding

    Jon Borcherding New Member

    Your sarcasm is duly noted. I'm tempted to reply in kind but I'll resist the urge. I have no idea how many generations it takes for the netting to kill off the last wild fish. It does seem rather inevitable under the current system, does it not?
    Perhaps you have an opinion you'd be willing to share?

  3. APS

    APS New Member

    JonB ~
    Sorry, no malicious sarcasm intended. More along the lines of a chuckle. The Nisqually and I have some history, I'll send you a PM later.

  4. Noah Pefaur

    Noah Pefaur New Member

    Since Custer died for everyone's sins Natives are fair game to blame for the depletion of the fishery, so i'll jump in now. I personally think that they are behind the whole thing, the damming of the rivers to reduce the fish survival, the clearcutting of forests to increase sediment and raise water temperatures, the influx of toxins into the river ecosystems from mining and industry, and don't forget all of the domestic and foreign fishing vessels which pull out tons of fish from the sound and ocean each year. I think they are also behind the constant push to bring roads to all wilderness areas to get back at us for forcing them onto what was perceived to be the most useless land at the time and destroying their economies. I look about as white as they come, and if I wasn't a registered and enrolled member of a tribe I could probably bite my tongue. Instead i'd like to point out that racism always finds an excuse. That being said, I don't like gill nets much but i've never had to sell fish by the roadside to subsidize my income.
  5. Dave Hartman

    Dave Hartman is tired of trout

    Thank you Noah for being brave enough to bring a bit of balance to the blame. I'll just add that I am sure that if whitey was allowed to net, they would net. Til' then, we'll just continue to destroy habitat in the most efficient ways possible in the name of capitalism.
  6. Noah Pefaur

    Noah Pefaur New Member

    I think that someone should organize a group of volunteers and boats for a "net cleanup float". A kind of like a stream maintenance to clear the river of any unattended nets/garbage, etc. That would be a worthwhile effort, maybe even a solution.
  7. Jon Borcherding

    Jon Borcherding New Member

    Subtle as a flying mallet, Noah plays the ubiquitous race card and sprints for the finish line completely oblivious of the logical hurdles ahead.:rolleyes:

    wooleybugger74, if this is "balance", I'd hate like hell to experience vertigo.

    I couldn't possibly care less about your ethnicity and, furthermore, I have no idea why you are jumping to conclusions about mine. Could it be possible that, perhaps, YOU are the one who is dealing in stereotypes here?

    That's a coincidence! Neither have I. I was provided with an education by the taxpayers of Wa. and I've made a reasonable effort to put it to good use. Hold the applause! Thousands upon thousands of people do it every year. No big deal.

    We know we've made mistakes with habitat, ie. dams, agriculture, industry, development, logging, etc. All Americans have benefited from these enterprises and the fish have lost.

    Hatcheries have provided fish for all user groups, sport, commercial and tribal, and the fish have lost.

    Harvest has benefited all user groups and the fish have lost.

    It's OK to debate habitat. The debate continues. Most user groups have already ceded some ground in the debate. Hopefully it helps the fish.

    It's OK to debate hatcheries. The debate is ongoing. Changes continue to be made that will hopefully help the fish.

    It's OK to debate harvest as long as you don't suggest that the terminal netting fisheries be stopped. The mere suggestion that this netting be stopped is garrantied to produce accusations of racism.

    When I hear people playing the race card on this issue I feel that their reason for doing so is because they are running out of valid arguments to continue this form of harvest.
    Your comments have certainly strengthened that impression.

  8. Jon Borcherding

    Jon Borcherding New Member

    Yes! "Someone" should do that!
    You won't catch me leading the crusade. Ever had a gun pointed at you for trying to sneak your boat under a net line? I won't touch the nets.
    Hey! I have a novel idea! Why don't the people who put them there clean them out?

  9. gt

    gt Active Member

    ahhh, whitey IS allowed to net fish commercially. they are required to use 'tangle' nets to assist in not having the fish gill themselves: have a very limited 'soak' time for each net set; and are required to have a fish 'recovery' box on board to bring all of those wild fish back to a release status.

    now how many of you have seen the native americans give a damn about letting any fish go?????????

    try and play the race card if you choose, but that is nothing more than sticking your head in the sand. no one is arguing about abuses, past, present and future, of the native americans in this country. what this is ALL about is having everyone involved with harvesting anadramous fishes playing by EXACTLY the same rule book, nothing more, nothing less.
  10. Noah Pefaur

    Noah Pefaur New Member


    Perhaps I should have responded to gt directly; to quote:

    "hey jonb, to point out the simple fact that the native americans are destroying our anadramous fish runs is not racist, only a point of fact. and guess what? when they have finished with the fishes, they have now shifted their attention to crab right here in sequim bay. drive on out and take a look at the refer trucks parked in the launch area at john wayne marina. then take a look at the people hauling thousands of pounds of crab in each and every day, 7 days a week. if these guys are native american, i am the easter bunny. "

    My comments were meant to address those quoted above, pretty much point by point. Playing the race card? I'm just saying that there is an awful lot of blame being placed on a single group for the fisheries depletion in the above statements.
  11. gt

    gt Active Member

    to repeat myself..................
  12. Jon Borcherding

    Jon Borcherding New Member

    On wednesday July 11 2007, at Neah Bay, one hand troller with 4 tribal fishermen onboard brought in over 300 coho with adipose fins intact. These 300 wild fish are now dead.
    All 300 fish were brought to the boat alive, bonked, and iced. They were part of a large school of wild coho that had been milling around near Blue Dot for 3 days. The ratio of wild to clipped fish in this school was over 20:1. They were wild, everybody knew it. They were targeted and killed.
    Who should we blame?
    This harvest is continuing this very moment. If you don't believe it, go out there and see for yourself.

  13. James Mello

    James Mello Inventor of the "closed eye conjecture"

    Okay Jon, let's play this game. How do you stop the NA from netting? Ideas? Suggestions? No one doubts that it's hard on the fish, but seriously, if you want to stop it, how do you propose that it happens?

    -- Cheers
    -- James
  14. Gary Thompson

    Gary Thompson dirty dog

    Nations within Nations.
    One Nation under God!!! We all should play by the same rules in a modern world. Not special rules for special people.
    I'm not just talking about fishing.
    What is a minority? #3 "a part of a population differing from others in some characteristics and often subjected to differential treatment"
    Just my .02
  15. Be Jofus G

    Be Jofus G Banned or Parked

    My neighbor is going to take a dump in his shorts when my Irish butt shows up in his garden with a 15 ton diesel potato harvester. :rofl:

    Serious question, Were the NA's throwing gillnets from diesel boats when the stevens treaty was signed?
  16. James Mello

    James Mello Inventor of the "closed eye conjecture"

    I agree with the statement, but still how does one go about changing the reality? Ideas?
  17. James Mello

    James Mello Inventor of the "closed eye conjecture"

    No, but set nets can be place just as easily with paddled boats. If you *really* want to see some great ways of catching salmon, take a look at an artificial weir with a fish paddle. They had the technology to do it, and it is 100% effective at removing fish from the river....

    Regardless, how does one still change the law that is in effect? The opinions are fine, but to change it, one must still have a strong argument, not just opinion...
  18. Be Jofus G

    Be Jofus G Banned or Parked

    Native americans are only a minority by population. It's pretty obvious who has the cash in pocket by simply looking at our politicans voting records. You want to make changes, start buying politicans. It is as simple as that. Of course, some things are eaiser said than done.
  19. James Mello

    James Mello Inventor of the "closed eye conjecture"

    It's not a legalative issue, it's a judicial one..... And yes, some things are easier said than done. I'm not a constitutional lawyer, but I don't think the legilasture can do much. They *could* go ahead and make a new law, but the upshot would be the tribes would contest it in court, and more than likely the new law will be shot down....
  20. Be Jofus G

    Be Jofus G Banned or Parked

    Judges need to get elected as well, don't they? :confused: come up with 50 mil in cold cash make a Michael Mooreesque documentardry about Indian genocide of wild steelhead to fund tax free gambling or something. Launch this with an overwhelming ad campaign. Maybe one showing a father and his kid getting skunked at the ol fishing hole. This will swing the popular opinion against boldt. Grease a few politicans to bring it up to a vote. Grease the chain of judges that the issue will fly on and pay for the best attornys money can buy to back you up.

    Sound pretty far fetched?

    The Tribes, Lumber industry, Mining industry....... are already pros at this game and will be playing the same thing against you. How deep are our pockets? Just deep enough to buy a wood framed house for our wives wearing a gold wedding band who we occasionally take to the casino for a few hands of blackjack on the weekends. :beathead: