Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by Piscivorous, Dec 15, 2006.
Papa, you missed the point. However, some of what you say rings true.
I tried once to point you in the right direction but none will follow the trail. The author is in the fly fishing business as is the magazine. Mr. Bennett owns Pacific Fly Fishers (which is also a sponsor of this web site). Maybe the web site should refuse thier sponsorship because the owner gives up to many secret spots or maybe the web site should be shut down because to many spots are being revealed to the unworthy. Mr. Bennett is an accomplished author and I would assume an accomplished fisherman. It all make perfect sense to me. He and the other people at the magazine are making thier living by writing articles, providing guide services, instuction, and selling equipment. What some of you are suggesting is that they stop working and do what go on welfare?
Some of you don't like them writing about certain spots. What the fuck are you? The secret spot police? Give me a break. Some of you complained about the river and its fish being endangered. Read the last paragraph of the article. The author talks of treating the river and its fish with respect and to realize it is a special river. He mentions that the steelhead population is self sustaining and the current regulations seem to be working to keep it that way.
Some of you guys need to get out from behind the keyboard and do some actual fishing. It will do wonders for your outlook on life. Perhaps you will learn to treat others with a little more respect when they are out trying to make a living.
I’ve already mentioned this before, but chasing the rumor doesn’t cut it. I liken it to fishing Point no Point; catch a Coho and everyone moves over to where you are playing your fish, trying to climb in your back pocket. With the deep scouring events that have occurred on our rivers during the last flood, it’s a whole new ball game. Old runs destroyed, new ones to be found. Fish hard, fish a lot and if you aren’t wearing the felts off your boots every six months, then you are not fishing hard enough. Quit chasing the latest and greatest FAD (Fishing Area Discovery). Make your own. It is not going to change. It will only get worse and there isn’t a fucking thing you can do about it.
taking everything a magazine publishes as 'fact' is as funny as believing everthing that is posted right here.
my one and only issue with these magazines is the never seem to highlight conservation or attending to the dwindling runs of fishes in the exact rivers they publish articles about. that is why i dropped my membership in TU and IGFA. after lengthy emails back and forth with folks in both organizations, it became clear they don't give a rip about the PNW and our anadramous issues.
nice photos though!
Crap Matt! now you went and ruined PNP for ever! Coho need to be allowed to reach their home river to at least make an attempt at spawning. The hordes of people who will now be raping the resource at PNP, will no doubt reduce the coho spawning runs considerably!!!!
Remember what it was like at PPoint during the pink run in 2005? :beer2:
Both sides of the argument make good points...
All i know is, the sauk was a freakin zoo after that last article, way more pressure was apparent... I'm surprized many haven't heard of the S. F. Toutle. It has a reputation. The river is smaller than the NF stilly though...
I don't like the mag, i canceled my subscription, due to similar reasons aforementioned. Since i only get checked about maybe once a year by the warden, I really question where their(states) money goes... And after seeing first hand how money is squandered at state colleges, don't get me started... I'm just waiting for the mag to start naming creeks and fisheries that REALLY can't take the pressure. And the thing is they can't go on with just well known fisheries, what happens when all those are covered? Will the mag stop? Hehe... money money money money, money.......
I understand about learning about the fisheries to protect them, but from what the publicity will bring, i doubt it will make a big of difference in "saving" the fish that swim there. If telling multitudes of willing anglers about a dwindling resource will save that resource, then I'm all for it. Until i see that happen... The jury is out and most likely not coming back. How many people will be at the conservation meetings concerning the Toutle because of this article? How many are just planning trips there and dreaming of a nice steel at their feet instead?
I was waiting for this one. In the current issue of NW fly fishing the monthly conservation column is about northwest roadless areas and the attack that is on them at this time. An article about the Mount Saint Helens Mine and the threat it poses to the Green River, The Tumwater Inventoried Roadless Area, possible impacts to the Cowlitz and eventually the Columbia. There is an article about the infestation of pike into Davis Lake, California and the efforts to rid the lake of them. Past issues have featured groups such as the Wild Steelhead Coalition and efforts like the Elwa dam removal to mention a few. Of all the fly fishing rags out there NW fly fishing publishes far more on conservation, restoration, and dewindling runs then any other.
The Sauk has been a fricking zoo for about 15 years now. It happened long before any article published in any magazine. There once was a time you could fish it and not see another fisherman all day. The reason there are more people on the rivers and streams is the simple fact the population in the Puget Sound has more then doubled in the past 20 years.
I think alot of guys see their values different than I do. To me, even though like I said before I dont fish the Toutle, there are ethical issues about glorifying a river with a run that is that depressed as a fishing destination. Yes people do this to make money, but for those of you that argue the whole, "spending money on a fishery, and yadda yadda, people only care if they fish it" is garbage. This has been the status quo in the NW, and guess what...ITS NOT WORKING. Native runs are dwindilng to despicably low numbers and people get pissed when I call someone out for writing an article on a fishery that has very few fish. Fly fishing is a blood sport, even if its uninteded, fish die, and when you increase the pressue on a little river like that you get lots of yahoos, who stumble into a steelhead and then either handle the fish poorly or whatever. A river with a run that depressed doesnt need the attention. Also, I am so sick of the people who say crap like "some of you guys need to loosen up and go fishing" I fish 3 times a week, so you're missing the point. The point is, the fish matter, not how much money someones gonna pay a guide to fish for them.
thanks kerrys, i will go take a look back at the magazine. :clown:
I'll give you all an update because I do fish the Toutle. I have fished it more than any other for Steelhead for the last 14 years. I will bet that I see an increase due to this article. I'm with Zen that when you have a little place that you consider your own little oasis and then you see that first major publication write about it you do get drepressed knowing that you will soon see more people. This is one of those rivers that will not take alot of people to make it a mess. Oh well looks like I'll be a getting the map out !!!
I have to admit I chuckled quite a bit over the "secret spot police" bit.. That was true genius.
I agree with Kerry. The Toutle is no secret and hasn't been for years. I see far less people on it now than before St Helens blew. There are no zipperlips much bigger than a jump across around anyway. If you get angry because you see another fisherman at a spot you like to fish (or even hear about a fisherman fishing a spot that you might like to fish someday) you need to get over it. The population of this state isn't going to go back to 1900 levels. Fishing isn't about survival of the human race, its supposed to be a fun sport. I find that reading about fishing spots enjoyable and yes even an old dog like myself even checks out a new spot every now and then. If its all about meat on the table its cheaper to buy it at the grocery store.
The first river I fished for steelhead was the NF Toutle. In 1968. I had never seen a place so beautiful in my life. So I fished it, its mainstem, and its Green River tributary. But I never fished the SF Toutle before St Helens blew. No need to, what with the abundant good water in the rest of the system. I first fished the SF in 1992, after moving to the south sound region again. The fishing never was hot, except for those brief seasons from 86 to about 90, according to locals who fished it regularly. I haven't fished it in the last 5 years, I think. There are more productive places.
The SF steelhead run rebounded initially after St Helens because the river was able to flush much of the volcanic sediment from the sub basin in the first two years, and then there was no serious flooding unitl 1990, which destabilized a lot of the remaining ash and continues to limit the fishery to this day. The SF is in better shape than the NF, but probably not by much.
The exposure from the NWFF article will likely increase the fishing pressure this coming season, but it most likely will drop off again for the simple reason that the fishing isn't that good. A small run, present for only a few good days each season means few anglers will hit it right to take advantage of the limited steelheading it offers. The CNR regulation and the small steelhead population probably restrict the fishing impacts to this run for the foreseeable future. If the run size (and this run is ESA listed) drops shortly, WDFW will simply close it to fishing.
I don't think magazine articles impact fish populations so much as they adversely impact the quality of the fishing experience of those who fished the named water prior to its publicity. That is a difference with a distinction.
Well said Salmo. I have fished it a handful of times over the years and never really thought it was a zipper lip river. The vast amount of cars parked on the side of the I-5 bridge should have been a dead give-away that there are fish in that system. Of course they are mainly whitefish .
Let's face it guys - such articles/magazines are a tried and true formula that works for the publisher. Why? I think it is because so many of us need an outlet to demostrate our fishing powers - That outlet can take the form of bragging to our buddies (usually doesn't do too much harm to our future fishing experiences), to posting fishing reports on the internet, to detailed info on zipper-lips, to how to/where articles in fishing rags - all of which the potential to significantly impacting the quality of future fishing experiences.
As a group we seem to have some need to drive ever decent fishery we stumble across to mediocrity by sharing with as many as possible. If you wish to break that trend we need to think before we act. If you don't like what a given magaizne is doing vote with your $$s - don't buy the darn thing, if you are subscribing don't re-up, boycott businesses and products that advertise letting folks know why, etc.
Regarding the Sauk - From someone that was in on that fishery on the very ground floor I'm with Kerry - it has been a zoo for more than 20 years now - a classic example of a world class fishery reduced to mediocrity. As I recall the first "kiss-and-tell" magazine article on that fishery was in the late 1980s with a article by Pete Soveral in Thomas Pero's Coffee table magazine (Atlantic Salmon/steelhead something or other - don't remembers its name and don't think it is any longer published).
I do fish the Toutle. I go because the pressure is very light, and there is good reason for it. There is not a large return, and the number of quality drifts is vert limited. The stream is really small once you get up unto the canyon, so overall there isn't much room for many anglers. I go becasuse I am willing to take a chance on a frequent skunk, simply because I personally prefer a quiet experience to to the crowds found on more prolific rivers like the Cowlitz.
Obviouslly, I do catch and release some wild fish, or I wouldn't keep going. Rather than a prime target for a whole day though, I stop by the Toutle on the way to or from the Kalama for a change of pace. Don't expect this to be the last untapped Klondike of steelheading in Western Washington, because it's not. I predict that there will be a short flurry of interest, then the Toutle will revert to the obscurity it so richly deserves.
These outdoor writers have to write about SOMETHING every issue, so this time it's my playground, next time you can be whore-ified to see your favorite haunt profiled. I look forward to meeting ya'll on the S fork this winter. Once.
If you think me fishing more will make me more okay with these types of articles than you've got it all backwards. The more I fish the less I'm happy with people writing about every single fishery regardless of how undiscovered it is. Writers should draw the line somewhere and my sense is that it was crossed in this instance.
I also think the author should do a better job talking about conservation. Why doesn't he mention the fact that the state dumps hatchery summer steelhead into the SF Toutle in spite scientific literature that says those plants can bring a wild winter stock to near extinction? I don't know whether anyone knows if the hatchery adults are spawning there and producing offspring that compete with the wild juveniles but it is a very important concern, especially if this run is in fact "chronically underescaped". Here's a link with an abstract on just that: http://www.nativefishsociety.org/conservation/biblio/wild_vs_hatchery/annotated_bibliography_on_salmon_hatcheries/ecological_competition/KOSTOW2003Ecological.htm
Maybe that concern seems like an obscure ecological interaction that writers shouldn't have to worry about. Guess what, that has been the status quo for too long and if we want our children to be fishing for wild steelhead and the genetic diversity able to adapt to climate change we better set the bar a hell of a lot higher.
you all need to get a life. that mag is for couch flyfisher men who only go to there local water holes to fish!!
Awesome 4th post guy. Your right though, I need to go fishing bad.
Really? I and my friends read that mag and we often drive 2 to 3 hours before sunrise to our destinations. We fish hard and often, but maybe we are just the exception. I doubt it though.