Occupy Skagit Redux

Discussion in 'Steelhead' started by _WW_, Jan 14, 2013.

  1. After seeing the tactics of the scuba diving community where they threatened and harassed a fellow scuba diver over the lawful take of an octopus, it seems to me if people really want to make a difference similar tactics should be used. The threats of violence worked. They are getting a hearing and the fish and game commission is considering several options including banning the take of octopus in the Puget Sound, and the take of any marine animal off the dive beaches in Seattle. Intimidation won. If Occupy Skagit doesn't work, and I dont think it will, maybe a page from the scuba divers book is in order. It sure worked for the scuba divers.
  2. Salmon have different limiting factors that steelhead. Therefore a well managed commercial fishery for salmon is a good thing for everybody. Well managed commercial fisheries for steelhead do not exist.

    Anyway I was under the impression that escapement on the skagit was around 1000 fish the past few years. If its making escapement a C&R season is warranted for sure.
  3. How do you figure? And this assumes every fish in the population is caught once, an extremely unlikely outcome. And the studies that examine steelhead caught multiple times found that those fish survived to spawn just as well as the others.

    Let's say the run is 5,000 adults, and every fish is caught once, which isn't likely, and the incidental mortality rate is 10%, resulting in 4,500 spawners. If one examines the Skagit escapement records since 1978, subsequent runs are just as likely to be good with 4,500 spawners as with a larger spawning escapement. Remember, spawner - recruit analysis doesn't even support the present escapement of 6,000 for MSH.

    Why form visceral conclusions when you could form rational ones based on logical analysis?

    Bob Triggs, _WW_ and flybill like this.
  4. Bingo, its all about the money!!!!
  5. Derek is right about the tribes ramping up their Chinook, Sockeye, and hatchery steelhead fisheries with additional impacts but I would bet my truck they will target wild steelhead if the harvest rate was increased. They have been targeting wild steelhead in C&S fisheries since the C&R season was shut down and they are going to take another 50-100 this spring in addition to the surprisingly large number they already took in their hatchery steelhead fishery which was shut down early due to impacts. One reason for these relatively small numbers is that it looks bad for them to be fishing when we aren't. To think that effort wont increase if we are allowed back on the river is kind of silly. If a C&R fishery ever happened, a lot more steelhead would die regardless of the fishery but as others have pointed out, harvest is not a limiting factor in recovery.
  6. That happened on the Green as well. What seemed like one positive step forward was offset by one (or more) steps back. This is a possible impact of a C&R fishery that everyone should consider.
  7. Having the Tribes as partners instead of adversaries would be usefull in these types of situations, like it or not they are co-managers and it would behoove us to have them as allies.
    Bob Triggs likes this.
  8. If the tribes want to join us then by all means they are welcome to do so. I guess they could stretch cork line without web across the river. As far as I am concerned Occupy Skagit has nothing to do with tribal fishing. We are attempting to reinstate the spring C&R season for steelhead on the Skagit, period. The tribes can do whatever they do. It has no bearing on Occupy Skagit. If the end result turns out to be that we indeed achieve the reopening of the C&R season and the tribes kill more steelhead using the C&R season as justification, that is on them, not us. I, for one, am not going to take any responsibility for what the tribes do.
    Jamie Wilson, Salmo_g and Jason Rolfe like this.
  9. Clearly for some, it's all about the fishing and not really about the welfare of the fish...wonder who will be the one to catch the last one?
  10. And yet for some there will never be enough fish to justify fishing for them. It doesn't matter how much evidence is presented showing a C&R season (including tribal harvest) is not going to lead to the bullshit scenario you keep bringing up...oh the last one...you will discount it because you know better.
    TallFlyGuy likes this.
  11. William,

    Couldn't have said it any better than that!
    TallFlyGuy likes this.
  12. You certainly left no doubt. Truth is, none of us "know better". It simply comes down to personal choices based on information past, present and projected future. Much as I'd love to have C&R fisheries, I choose to err on the side of caution.

    I found Kerry's comment quite telling...casting aside unintended, negative consequences, seems shortsighted.
  13. You also forgot to mention that Kerry is absolutly right. Each user group is responsible only for its own actions.
    I don't know who will get the last fish - I only know for certain that if there is one, who will get 50% of it.
  14. So if the number of fish killed increases, even if it's from an indirect consequence of having a C&R fishery, that's OK with you?
  15. FSA - we fished and had a tribal harvest over the parents of the fish that are returning this season (a very large percentage of returning skagit fish are 2 fresh water/2 salt) that run was in the mid 2,000's - they forecast 4300 back this season because of you guessed it, good ocean conditions - if we see somewhere in the area of over 5000 fish come back - will you finally believe that a C&R fishery with the co-managers harvest does not effect the long term stability of the run. Its been hard for us to help you understand that point on a C&R fishery - what we want in the OS camp is a C&R fishery when the numbers are OVER the escapement - 6000 fish. Nobody wants or believes its responsible to fish over 2500 fish - that is not what we are looking for - if numbers are consistent over the 6000 mark, we want NOAA and the State to have a basin abundance approach to management of the PS systems and reopen the Skagit C&R fishery in February, March and April. Not the Sky, Stilly, Green or the Puyallup - just the Skagit - because the abundance is good and fishing that system then is responsible and will not hurt the long term stability of the run.
  16. Ummmm I must have said something that someone didn't like. Let me guess; he doesn't like the idea of taking resposibilty for one's own actions. Doesn't surprise me. I doubt he would take responsibility for his own words. That is how it works for certain people. Quick to point the finger at others but unwilling to accept their own injustices.

    If you don't support Occupy Skagit don't show up. If you want to object to our position on C&R and our wish to have each river basin judged seperately show up at the commisioners meeting. If all you are interested in doing is to put people down because you don't like them or you don't agree with them, then expect to be ignored.
    doublespey likes this.
  17. With the viability of the run preserved, yes. I'm also okay with bears, otters, seals, sea lions, eagles, sharks, floods, droughts, commercial bycatch, volcanoes, and tsunamis taking some also. As long as the long term viability of the run is unaffected.

    Would you like to ask your question in yet another way?
    KerryS and doublespey like this.
  18. Now that we clearly know what's most important to some... by all means, occupy and fish away boy's.
  19. Wow I hope you have a good insurance policy to cover your glass house with all the rocks you like to hurl from your perfect perch. I am all about the fishing. Not the least guilty about it either.

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