Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by BOBLAWLESS, Feb 26, 2005.
I hope you slept well...
Patrick your comment about this being different than other converstions on the site is true so far. Let's keep it that way everyone. A civil discourse is possible on religious issues contrary to what some may believe.
If your not interested in a lively but civilized discourse do what Big K1 did no thanks no harassment no smart aleck comments just no thanks. :thumb:
Wow...I never come to this forum but I'm glad I did...
I am a pagan...I believe in a power around me but it is not an ancient bearded old man...that would be Santa Claus. More death and destruction, suffering and torment has been brought upon humans by their primitive beliefs that any other single factor in all of human existance. Millions upon millions have suffered and died throughout all human history because "your god is not my god" and it's still going on today.
I implore everyone to read this article by respected journalist Bill Moyers. He details how our current christian administration doesn't care about our natural world. They are trying to accelerate armeggedon with their policies. The sooner the natural world is destroyed, the sooner they sit next to their god.
There is no tomorrow
And to pwoens
If you do choose to believe in them and act according to the doctrine...how much damage will you have done to your fellow man before you die?
Hell is a christian concoction to control the masses through fear and guilt...the exact tact taken by the Bush adiminstration..."if you're not with us, you're with the terrorists"..."if you do not follow interpretation X, Y or Z of the bible, you will go to hell"
If fear and ignorance were not a cornerstone of christianity, then why was the "tree of knowledge" forbidden? Is knowledge a threat to primitive belief systems?
Remember, it wasn't that long ago that christian love meant you were tied to stick and set on fire!
yeah Jesse agreed- I was just trying the new public safety and health tact since this seems to be where our gov't is going after new tax revenue from--sin taxes,etc-- how about a god tax then to ?
I haven't heard an annoucement yet that the Skykomish C&R season is being reopened so I guess there isn't a Lord Almighty , just the WDFW .......I prayed and prayed and even refrained from having more than three cocktails last night to see if he would deliver.
... theres your sign
Figure it out for yourself...
16. And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17. But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
So Genesis was a lie...no one died. Eve had some kids didn't she...she didn't die, she was just relocated 'cuz she called gods bluff...she learned something.
Roper, everyone...please don't be offended by anything I may post...I really love a good debate and may get a bit confrontational at times. I have been struggling with what I percieve as "brainwashing through guilt and intimidation" since I fell from the Catholic flock when I became inquisitive as a teenager (which is evil because you don't ever question or you go to hell). I am a very analytical person and need sources to back up what I am told is true.
If you tell me "I believe in hell" thats fine, I would never ask anyone to prove their faith, it can't be done. But if you tell me "There is a hell and you are destined for it"...I'm gonna ask for 3 independant sources of proof. The bible and any evidence derived from it only count as one.
I firmly believe the bible is a great historical text of events in middle eastern history. Most of it was written long after the fact by simple people using opium to curb the pangs of starvation which was common at the time.
Is it the word of god? No one knows...you may believe it, but you can't prove a belief, you can only prove a fact.
I believe it was the word of man, enchanced by chemically induced "miracles".
First of all, I think this thread is part of Bob Lawless's plan to divide and conquer the known world, starting with this forum! Just kidding.
A few observations.
Some of the strongest, finest men I have ever known I met at church as a young man. Worldly men, well-educated, well-balanced, tolerant, happy, caring; these men were the foundations of their families and the communities around them. They never proclaimed that they where these things -- you could just tell. They were the kind of person I wish I were today and hope to be tomorrow. When I hear people decry church-goers as weak-minded fearful simpletons I immediately write off the source of these utterances as ... well, just wrong. It just doesn't jive with my experience.
I think that 75% of going to church is about community. People are hard-wired to want to belong to a community. If church did not exist, people would invent a reason to get dressed up one day a week and make a trip into town to connect. In this sense, the denomination of the faithful is irrelevant. In a weird parallel, I find that gathering with my fly-fishing faithful is a similar experience. Usually there's a mix of older men and younger and they exhibit the same behavioral patterns you'd find at church. I feel the same sense kinship and experience the same respect for the men who have gone before me and who want to help the new guy.
Lastly, I think that, in a discourse such as this one, one should stay away from the flawed violence-from-religion argument. It's irrational and just plain wrong.
Death by Communism: 120 Million
World War II direct deaths: 56 Million
Chinese Civil War - 40 Million
Total: 216 Million (and these are just the first three off the top of my head).
I challenge anyone to gather up deaths caused by religion that are even in the same order of magnitude. This doesn't even include the 618,000 Americans who died determining whether a man should be free or not. So the argument that religion has killed more people than everything else is just so crazy-wrong as to be laughable. I would posit from the numbers above that many more people have been killed because they believed in something than otherwise.
Anyway, those are just some observations from my admittedly-limited time here on earth.
That's a tough one just because of lack of accurate record keeping throughout history. We've been a lot more thorough in keeping track of these things in recent decades. The examples you cite are certainly valid though, and are by no means thorough when you consider the genocides that slide under the radar. After all who remembers the Armenian genocide? Oh wait, that one was religious, and served as an example that Hitler followed...
At any rate, with as violent as world history has been, I have a hard time believing that war deaths in the past century exceed all those throughout human history. Even an educated estimate would not suffice, for there are those who believe humans have only existed for 8000 years, whereas others believe this is only a tiny fraction of human history. It's one of those things you can debate forever, but neither side will have sufficient evidence to sway the other. People believe what they want to believe.
Your inquisitiveness is admirable and something all of us I think should have when it comes to issues of faith, God, religion, etc.. What strikes me is that its your inquisitiveness as a teenager which utlimately led to your falling away from the Catholic faith. In my experience, it has been my inquisitiveness and search for "rationality" within religion that has not simply helped me remain Catholic, but has deepened my faith in God. I suppose I find the philosophsical influences of the Catholic theological tradition to be more compelling than what you find in the Evangelical/fundamentalist churches.
As for who goes to hell and who does not, there is not a person on earth who can say with certainity he or she knows someone is actually in hell. Such a judgment is reserved for God and God alone. Human beings do not have the capacity to make such judgments, so we are better served not to make them. When we do, all that is accomplished is further division and seperation amongst an already divided human race. In the end, we are all in this world together, and what we do and how we act should reflect our love and concern for others, even those who differ from us politically, ethnically, culturally, and theologically. God is not on the side of Catholics, Protestants, Hindus, Athiests, Muslims, etc.. but rather (or ideally) we as human beings are (or hopefully will be) on the side of the God who created us.
Keep your inquisitiveness and openness. It can serve you very well.
Come on Dave, think about it. The Old Testament was written in an old language, Eve did die, not that "day" but after that day. Who knows, maybe she and Adam would have lived forever if they had heeded God's word.
Don't worry, you don't offend me. I merely suggested you find out for yourself. Sorry to hear you were Catholic, I'm not too impressed with their doctorine, dogma, or whatever you care to call it. They're still in the dark ages if you ask me. There have been many prophets over the ages, each one has spoken God's word as could be understood at that time. I believe we are in an age of understanding that goes beyond the old prophets. But I also believe in what they brought to us. Rarely will you find a church that follows the Word without putting it's own benefit and twist on it. But the writings are there for all to read and understand.
Too bad the Pagans (whoever they are) didn't have a written language, you could quote something on heaven and hell... :clown:
As far a being analytical ( root word anal...?) Einstein was quoted as saying..."I want to know God's thoughts, the rest is all details..."
"So Genesis was a lie...no one died. Eve had some kids didn't she...she didn't die, she was just relocated 'cuz she called gods bluff...she learned something. "
Dude, last I checked, Eve is deader than a door nail. The idea is that there was no death before the 'first sin'. Sin brought death into the world.
"brainwashing through guilt and intimidation"
I agree that many make Christianity much more 'religious' than I believe it was intended to be. And as I've said before, I see Christianity as an 'anti religion' - and don't agree with the direction it has been taken by more 'religious' and rigid groups. Clearly there is danger in directly linking religion with government and that kind of power has been abused throughout history. This is a downfall of mankind and not a reflection of what Christianity is meant to be. (and no, I don't think the US anywhere close to a theocracy. It just happens that we are historically and currently a majority 'Christian'. But we don't have an 'official religion' that we must recognize...)
Anyway, I see the same "brainwashing" done by zealots of all kinds. Formal religion is just one obvious example. But it is also very prevalent politically and socially. It can be observed in the scientific community, universities and the education system as a whole, and in the media and entertainment industries, etc. Just think about the movies we see, the news we hear, the books we read, and the music we fill our heads with. It's all a form of 'brain washing' - some is just more obvious than others. And we all seem to think we are immune from it. Personally I see it competing all around me and I try to make conscious choices as to what I want to influence me. I like to be a critical and analytical thinker and apply a heavy dose of discernment when approaching anything in life. As Zen said above, I like to think for myself.
"I implore everyone to read this article by respected journalist Bill Moyers. He details how our current christian administration doesn't care about our natural world. They are trying to accelerate armeggedon with their policies. The sooner the natural world is destroyed, the sooner they sit next to their god."
Oh, and we had fun a few times already with this one. Yours is the 3rd post on Moyers little speech recently. And while there are bits and pieces of truth sprinkled in, I think we (well, I'm sure some took it hook line and sinker) were able to debunk it as political hype that could easily be described as 'fear mongering' and "brainwashing through guilt and intimidation"....
Just one quick post while I'm on break. Roper makes a good point about the translations from an ancient language. Point in case...
In the septuagint, the Greek Old Testament, there are different forms of the verb "to know" and its corresponding noun "knowledge". Some occurences of "knowledge" come from the Greek word "oida" (transliterated into English letters). This word means basically to mentally perceive or know by seeing something. "Oida" (where we get the english word "video"), is NOT used to describe knowledge that comes by exertion or experience. The other most common word for "knowledge" comes from the Greek word "Ginosko", which means to know or understand by exertion or experience.
The greek word translated into "knowledge" in "the tree of knowledge of good and evil", comes from the word "ginosko". God did not want man to experientially know the devastating effects of performing evil. IE-God didn't want his kids to get hurt...no different than one of us telling our child to not touch a hot burner on the stove. Does this make us bad parents because we didn't let our child experience every possible form of painful experience? Of course not.
However, if you study the record of Genesis, you would see that God instructed Adam and Eve. He DID want them to "oida", mentally perceive and be aware of evil so they could avoid harm. Did you happen to notice that Adam's job was to dress and keep the garden? Where was the tree of knowledge of good and evil? -in the midst of the garden. Adam was to dress & keep that tree as well...just not to eat (assimilate) of it. Notice how later when the serpent beguiles Eve, that she lets her mind slip & adds an additional commandment "neither shall ye touch it". God never commanded this; quite the contrary. Eve changed the word of God, & got herself into the soup....people still doing the same today; adding and taking away from the scripture.
God wanted His man and His woman knowledgeable. God DID want Adam to have a knowledge (oida, understanding) of good and evil. God did NOT want Adam to experience evil (ginosko).
Pretty common sense really, God was being a good DAD.
Underneath all the translations, all the changes in language, all the opinions, and errors, that have crept into what we call the "Bible", still lies the undeniable rock-solid and unshakeable truth. You've just gotta want it.
ALL APPARENT CONTRADICTIONS IN THE BIBLE ARE EITHER AN ERROR IN TRANSLATION OR AN ERROR IN THE COMPREHENSION OF THE READER.
Starting with tower of Babel where we fear those not like us, to the building of the pyramids, to the inquisition and Crusades on to the christian colinization and purge of South America, Africa, Persia, Asia, North America, Australia and every other land where the sub-human aboriginal hordes needed to be "cleansed" and "shown the way". Examine the phrase "Onward Christian Soldier". Missionaries usually preceeded the military by only a few years.
Sure...since 1900 we have become quite adept at killing ourselves, but genocide is not something new...A lot of people have died in the last 100 years and you have statistics to back it up.
Sewing salt into fields, burning crops and poisoning wells may not be as effective as a bullet but the results are much more wide spread, it also makes it much more difficult to generate big impressive numbers since it has been going on for 5000 years with no end in sight.
Death and destruction from beliefs are not restricted only to violence. The simple fact that it was "unchristian" to puncture the boils of black plague victims in the 11th century which was known to lessen the illness. Who knows what exquisite torture waited for those who failed to comply.
The word Witch which is derived from "woman with wit (or education)"...one who practices natural medicine with the knowledge of herbs. "Only god can heal the sick and to prove it we will stone to death anyone who uses medicine". Sure only a few thousand were ever executed for witchcraft (which it is NOT) but how many countless others have died waiting for "divine intervention" that could have been helped by these wise women.
I'm having a blast with this...
Ok...so Adam and Eve were immortal, their prodgeny would have been immortal also...what is the carrying capacity of the Garden of Eden if no one ever died?
Sin didn't bring death to the world, birth did...I guess I have Eve to thank for allowing me to bonk the occasional salmon...otherwise it would be all C&R.
Are you sure, where's my three sources of proof? I think you "believe" they are errors in translation and have faith that they are not errors in the book itself.
(about 30th on the list)
1.5M Armenian Genocide
Even if you find 100 other religiously-inspired genocides of that magnitude (you won't), you will just pass the 120 million killed by atheists.
In that light, let's change the saying to something more accurate:
More people have been killed by anti-religious governments than any other factor.
Oh who am I fooling. You are right, people will believe what they want to believe. Which is why this thread is a total waste of time. If you can't convince someone with hard numbers like this, they aren't going to be convinced.
chemically induced "miracles" ??
I think I believe all of you-
I have these nightly
Ok, back in Gods corner now, it was iffy there given the Skykomish didn't open up.
I believe in a high power which for me is water. My whole life, no matter what ,has involved fishing and water.
I did like the quote by someone about if there is no hell or heaven you simply die, but if there is and you are in the wrong fish camp on this issue you are screwed.
I was raised Protestant but what if God is Catholic, am I still screwed or do my drinks just cost more?
thanks for all these post's , great info
The more I read these post, the more I realize that it is not the religion but how certain people twist it. If it is truly the translations and interpretations that cause the problems, how on earth do you know you are following the right one? Someone's gotta be wrong...maybe it's you?
Having faith in the sunrise, sunset and a 20 inch cutthroat works for me...and if there is a god...it should work for her too.
I need to thank Bob for getting me going and making me the most hated member of this forum.
I still think blind faith is just that...blind.
OK...I give in...death by religious persecution isn't all that bad.
I sense insight creeping into this discussion. Someone should put a stop to it.
IMHO (and I have no numbers to back this up), "Personal Gain" is what kills millions of people constantly. Pol Pot, Mao Zedung, Kim Jong Il, et al. And of course they are not going to say "I killed those <x> million peasants to consolidate my power-base in the <ethnic-inserted-here>-dominated <region>." They are going to cloud the issue in an idea, like religion, or anti-religion, or "cultural revolution".
EXACTLY...Power, property, religion...the trifecta of war...
now one more time...why did we invade Iraq?
I'm not even going to touch that.
BTW, I'm pulling for you to get the "most-hated-member" award, since I think I had it before you. There's been a definite "cooling" to my posts ever since I pointed out that the Kyoto Protocol is a bunch of crap.
Thanks a bunch...now I get to start pissing off people I haven't met.