On religion and such

Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by BOBLAWLESS, Feb 26, 2005.

  1. jessejames Flyslinger

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    There have been millions of people murdered using the excuse that it is a religious battle. It very rarely is, Mooch you gotta know that using religion the justify evil is a great way to avoid pesonal responsibility. I would have to say that ethnic cleansing, murder, torture etc is a result of the desire for personal power and monetary or territorial gain. (read $$$$$)
    Do you really believe we are in Iraq because this is a war between the Christian God and the Muslim God???
    Do you really believe that the Native Americans were wiped out to prove that the Christian God was more powerful.
    Do you really believe that millions of Jews were in Nazi Germany killed because of religious conviction.
    Do you really believe that the 100's of years of violence and bloodshed in Ireland is really the Catholics versus the Protestants.
    Mooch if you really believe all that you are really not looking for truth you are looking for a scapegoat for all evil. You wont find it in real Christianity.
    jesse clark
  2. jessejames Flyslinger

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    Say mooch could you give me three reliable independant sources that prove the Bible was written by simple people curbing the pangs of starvation with opium. WOW what a statement!!
    The people that wrote the Bible were some of the most intellegent of their time. There is absolutely no internal evidence that any of them were suffering from starvation and just because there were visions that were seen surely doesn't necessarily mean they in some kind of drug induced trance.
    I like a good discussion too but it is this kind of inflammatory statement that takes a good discussion and turns it into a name calling rant.
    jesse clark
  3. mr trout Trevor Hutton

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    not to hijack the thread, but I thought since it is a religions discusion I would reccommend the movie Luther. It is about the Protestant reformation. It s a good movie wheter you believe or not. I never knew a lot about that period, and the movie seems to do a good job. well- keep up the discussion, its been interesting to watch from the sidelines!
  4. dmoocher Member

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    Carl Ruck is professor of classics at Boston University


    Jesse...I'll surf for 2 more.
  5. chadk Be the guide...

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    dmoocher - you gotta give the actual link to be valid... ;)

    I love this part:

    "did Jesus use cannabis"

    :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
  6. dmoocher Member

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    Sorry about the link...just Google it...there are a few dozen articles on the subject...I only read a few and grabbed the first one.

    http://www.cannabis.net/articles/jesus-cannabis.html

    Jesse...go for it...I'm a minor history buff and by no means an expert on anything but I like to find rational explainations for things...many religions in many cultures on this planet needed "herbal assistance" to talk to god. That is a fact. Why should yours be any different?
  7. jessejames Flyslinger

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    I like to find rational explanations for things too. But does this qualify???
    I will give you my quick response to your last statement. People do all kinds of weird stuff trying to have some kind of "spiritual experience" the prophets and writers of the Bible didn't need it because they had the real deal.
    Got to sign off for now if your going to give me any more of this stuff it has got to be a little more believable than this. :confused:
    jesse clark
  8. wet line New Member

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    Burien, WA, King.
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    This has been an amazing discussion so far! I am amazed no flame retardant has been needed.

    Much reference has been made of the Bible, and I am assuming the christian Bible which excludes the Old Testament. Now which of the 20 plus Bibles are being reffered to. They are all somewhat different.

    Early on the Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholics, the only two christian religions had a little council meeting back in the 4th centrury AD to mediate who was the Pope and what was to be in The Bible. They didn't settle either issue and each had their own Pope and their own Bible. All sorts of things were thrown out and other things added, including reincarnation. Then off shoots came along and wrote their version of the Bible. So today we have over 20 versions of the Bible.

    Now what I don't understand and maybe some more enlightened can shed some light on the subject. Why is it that none of Jesus's writing are in the Bible? He was a Rabbi and well educated and was a prolific writer as was his brother. And what is this he was a poor dude walking around. Joseph was head of the house of David and was a wealthy man and his uncle Joseph of Aremathea was the second wealthiest man in the world and controlled all the mining interests in what is now the UK and had the largest merchant fleet in the world. He was council to Ceasar in Rome. The first miracle was the curing of Pharoes son of leprosy when the holy family was in exile in Egypt and for that there was a Kings ransom payed in gold and precious stones.

    These are historical facts but not found in the Bible. Why?

    I know some of you are going to want references but I am sad to say that these are things that I still remember when I took a course way too many years ago entitled The Bible as Literature.

    Dave
  9. pwoens Active Member

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    Hey Dave....I have about 20 seconds, but wanted to say "where did the exclusion of the old testament come from"? I do not know of any Christians that exclude the old testament.???

    I'll get back to this later...gotta go to wally world for osme groceries.
  10. salt dog card shark

    Posts: 2,306
    Edmonds WA / Mazama
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    As an old alter boy, I can't hardly stand on the side lines, this is way to much fun. So, here it goes.

    First, analytical reasoning is not necessarily the path to find TRUTH, only to find truth (no caps). While each will pursue their own path by using the tools they feel most comfortable, in the end, analysis and logic is lineal, and is but one of many tools in the shed, some say one of the more dull ones for god hunting. Reality is too multi-dimensional to be fully encompassed and understood by our meager linear thinking capabilities. To believe that you, as an individual, is capable of knowing the unknowable, though logical thought, is pretty narcisstic; and is it itself rational? or is it obsessive.

    If it is your predilection to pursue the world in that manner, you're free to do just that, and each of us does indeed travel along their own path in the manner they feel is appropriate. But in the final "analysis", logic is no more capable of proving the absence of a god as it is in proving the existence of GOD. In both the religion of the science of logical thought, and in the theocracy of the faith of a true believer, there is a common point of divergence wherein each path began with a leap of faith (William James). Thereafter, each having built their argument or world view on a foundational hypothesis that can neither be proven or disproven, their view is extended forward by each in logical steps that are fully consistent and rational, given the primary assumption of the validity of their foundation.

    Some would say that this was the forbidden fruit eaten by adam and eve, the very thought that they could know it all. Pretty presumptuous really.

    So, in the final perspective, you might as well go fishing. And when you do, you don't try to understand through logic that feeling you have inside as the first sliver of morning sun light shines through the rising mist of a river. It is good enough to acknowledge that you are standing waist deep in one of the greatest of mysteries. Be humble enough to simply celebrate this bit of creation, and to touch first hand a piece of the sacred part of life. For me, I find undeniable the existence of god at such times. My soul knows. My head confounds.

    This God has nothing to do with catechism or dogma, and this God does not count the times I've missed Sunday mass. Though I think He/She might count the times when I have been out of sync with my soul and those around me, and pursued a buck instead of taking the time to live more fully in tune with creation. I would also prefer to think that God holds in lowest repute those that would knowingly low hole another. Bait fishermen are forgiven their trespasses only as long as they were not past the age of reason.

    I can comfortably accept the simultaneous truth of logical inconsistencies like good and evil. There are, after all, many paradigms in our world that are beyond my full understanding. It isn't an "either one or the other" sort of world we live in, though many try to tell us it is, and demand that we choose.

    Jesus, I hear from good sources, liked to hang out with fishermen. Despite that they are reputed to have been commercial fishermen, I have no doubt that had he come back today, he might be found casting an old bamboo rod with elegant grace and efficiency along a quiet piece of Western river water, swinging a dry fly for summer run, and yelling with unmatched excitement, "fish on"!
  11. cmtundra New Member

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    You're absolutely right.

    The bible claims that "pharmakeia" -the use of drugs as a "spiritual" aid are a part of every culture. "Pharmakeia" in the bible is normally translated in the English versions as "witchcraft"...which of course is forbidden by the True God...that's where you start veering into fantasyland.

    Your logic seems to be nothing more than: Drugs existed in the bible times. Drugs produce hallucinations. Jesus had visions. Therefore, Jesus did drugs.
    -That's not logic.
    Upshot college professors gaining attention by taking pot-shots at everything to do with God, Jesus, the Bible, etc is nothing new either. The bigger lie you tell & the bolder you tell it, the more likely many people will believe it.

    edit-have you ever considered putting as much effort into seeing if there's truth in the Bible as you do in attempting to disprove it?
  12. dmoocher Member

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    Well said Dog...I have repressed memories of Catechism and of the nun, who may have not been satan herself, did lunch with dark lord regularly.

    There is an answer out there somewhere and though the "good book" may be an excellent source for some, I feel we are in downward spiral with leaders who use it as their only source.

    Thank you everyone...I got nothing done today and enjoyed every minute. I'm hoping that next week Bob starts a less contriversial thread on perhaps the death penalty or abortion.

    So all illness is caused by satan, the earth is the center of the universe, the study of anatomy is evil and there are no moons around Jupiter...what you call pot-shots are simply questions that would have gotten me tortured and killed only 300 years ago.
  13. cmtundra New Member

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    ...and they probably cussed up a storm too!! :eek: oh how unreligious! :eek:
  14. BOBLAWLESS New Member

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    I'm with Pat on his idea that the Old Testament is part of nearly every
    Christian's belief.

    Christ had a brother? I have heard that he was gay but I have never heard of any brother. Where did you see or hear that? Very interesting. Because if Christ had a brother, this brother would also be the son of God and should be worshipped I should think.

    A few people need to read a little history about the crusades conducted by the Catholic Church, the only Christians of time. Particularly, the fourth crusade should be of interest as untold thousands were murdered by various Christian vigalantes marching to the holy land to clear it of non-believers.

    But I want to pose a few questions. Any answers will be appreciated.

    1. If Eve was the sole woman and Adam the sole man until their two sons were born, Cain and Able, how did further progeny occur? Was there an incestual relationship between the sons and Eve?

    2. Let's take Hitler as a man one would think would surely go to hell. He was directly responsible for the death of six million Jews, give or take a few million, and in the war which he started in one single battle, 2 million soldiers from Russia and Germany were killed. Now will he stay in hell forever? I mean, yes, burn hell out of him for say sixty million years, but should not even Hitler be one day freed?

    3. Who was God's mother? How did She come about?

    4. If the beginning was on Monday (okay, let's make it Saturday if you think such things are important), what was going on the day before? I mean Friday? What was up Friday? I'm not talking about the beginning of the world--I'm talking about the beginning of everything--time itself.

    5. If we put a sign someday at the end of space and you could go there and see it, what would be in the photograph you might take of stuff beyond the sign?

    Bob, the I've always been a fisherman and a traveler in a land of fools. :(
    I do not mean to insinuate that Christians are the only fools--anybody that goes on blind faith seems foolish to me. I am a fool myself.
  15. dmoocher Member

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    1. Yes...The Garden of Eden is somewhere near Missouri.

    2. Old Testament-god is a god of vengance; New Testament-god is a god of love...I'm confused.

    3. Mother Earth/Father Time - match made in heaven

    4. Karaoke night in purgatory

    5. More stuff all over again.

    Question #6...why weren't dinosaurs on Noahs Ark?
    ( question 6a...why did Noah take cholera, syphillis, mosquitos and squawfish?)
  16. jessejames Flyslinger

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    I am willing to give it a shot Bob.
    1.The Bible is not explicit in the detail of the sexual relations of the first family. But the lines were pure no chance for genetic problems brothers married sisters and cousins married cousins. The Bible says that in this time before the flood men and women lived a very long time 500 to nearly 1000 years so there was plenty of children for the procreation process to work. Later in time when there was a bigger population incest was prohibited. Genesis ch.19
    2. The Bible in Luke 16:19ff indicates that that is a separation between heaven and hell and there is no possible way to go from one to the other.
    3.If you are referring to Jesus as God his birth mother was Mary who conceived by miraculous means she was a virgin.
    God the father is has been is preexistant, no beginning no end. God the father had no mother there was no Mrs. God.
    4. In the begining there was God. He was there before and is still there our history begins in Genesis 1:1 in the Beginning.
    5. HUH
    By the way Jesus did have 3 brothers james joseph and jude and at least 2 sisters. Matt 13:55. There were born after Jesus the sons and daughters of the marraiage of Joseph and Mary. Jesus father is God so they had the same mother Mary.
    Because Jesus never married and hung around guys during his earthly ministry that makes him Gay??
    jesse clark
  17. pwoens Active Member

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    My apologies up front as I am running on only a few hours of rest but, you just confused the daylights out of me? I mean, if I live according to what I believe Jesus wants me to live by, then I will have done absolutely nothing to my fellow man accept love them and share the truth with them. This is harder for me to do than it would be if I did not try to live out my faith, rather live in this world, for this world, with the prince of this earth, the devil himself. It would be way easier to hate you for blaspheming my God, but I would rather love you and pray for you, that you may come to see the truth and experience the true joy, mercy, and forgiveness that Jesus offers. I don't do drugs but I do experience a personal relationship with God and I am so grateful for this.

    I really do not have the energy tonight to continue and will probably be even worse tomorrow, but I am going to take my last bit of energy and use it to pray for you.
  18. BOBLAWLESS New Member

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    Jesse, In response to your answer for question number one, there is not one shred of imperical evidence that shows man has ever lived 500 to a thousand years, no bones, no skulls, no carbon dating, no nothing. Your answer, while sincere, is weak and has no factual base except the bible which has no factual base either for that matter.

    Response to question number 2: You quote the bible as if that answers the question. I am fully aware of what the bible says. The questions begs this: is this fair? Would a loving God invent such a cruel sentence? I mean I thught I was sufficently harsh with my sixty million years of keeping Hitle on fire but don't You (not the bible) think that forgiveness should one day come? And if you believe the bible that says no, then can you respect this book?

    Response to question number 3. I tallking about the Big Chief, not his son or the Holy Ghost. How can you believe that God had no genesis? Everything has a mother. Why was God's mother never honored?

    Response to question 4: I'm not talking about our history as I made clear in my post. I am talking about the beginning of everything, the Cosmos, God, God's mother, whatever. What about the day before the beginning?

    #5. Where is the end of space? Where does God's realm stop?

    I was unaware of his half brothers and half sisters. My bad. I am not calling Christ gay. I have just read a lot of speculation that he was. I have also heard he was insane from heat exposure on his long trips into the desert. I don't necessarily believe all I have heard.

    Bob, the Never satisfied by biblical answwers that coould be interpreted to mean most anything. :confused:
  19. BOBLAWLESS New Member

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    Dmoocher.

    Thanks for your answers to my questions. Very clever and funny indeed. In fact a few of them make about as much sense as anything else I have heard.

    As to #6 and #6a. Excellent observation. The Noah's ark deal is perhaps the most ludicrous of all the biblical myths. I have estimated that in order to pack two of all species he would have had to have an ark of 136.7 miles long with a beam of 52.756 miles. This would be hell to control, particularly in a flood. But if the bible says so, and you bellieve the bible, I guess you have no problem with the awesome magnitutde of the task he was faced with. I am pissed about the ticks. He could have left the ticks.

    That's not really too much to ask.

    Bob, the Nice guy even if God dosen't think so. That's just his opinion. :cool:
  20. Lisa New Member

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    Portland, OR
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    Jesse,

    "While I appreciate the "spiritual experiences" that many people have, a spiritual experience can be with a another person or with nature or in meditation. A spiritual experience can be peaceful or enlightening. But the difference is that when this spiritual experience is rooted in the believe of the God of Creation there is power that flows from God to you, if the spiritual experience is just an experience the power has to come from within, it is limited by our own frailties. There is no positive supernatural power in just feeling good. "

    This is exactly what I meant in my first post. If I don't believe the way you do, then I am wrong or not fully right. Not to be offensive, but how do YOU know anything of my "spiritual experiences"? Isn't that a bit judgemental? How would you feel if I told you that your experiences were not true and that you were not complete because you needed to believe in a specific God? I have no problem with people choosing to believe in christianity, anything that brings people to an inner peace is great, however you get there.

    Patrick-

    I am very happy for you that you live a better life due to your involement with christianity. I was a believer in Christ and then chose a different path. I grew up believing that if you were not a christian then your life was somehow not complete. Now that I have matured I have realized that people find the inner peace that christians talk about in many pathways. Many nonchristians live very honorable lives. Some follow a code of conduct that is as good or better than most religions teach.

    Capmblade

    First you used WW2 in your numbers, last I heard they were killing Jews. I think then you need to use those numbers as religous based deaths. Second- just because the person that started the war wasn't using God as their reason to be in the war, that doesn't mean that they are atheist. The Revolutionary War was about land mass. Yet the colonists and English were religious.

    With that being said, let me finish with I do not mean to be disrespectful to other's beliefs. Growing up within a religous family I have had great examples of christianity. I have a lot of respect for my parents and the lives that they lead. I have also met several others that live true to their faith in christ. It is not the religion or the belief that makes a man, it is whether or not they live what they believe. Since you guys have used fishing metaphors, religion is like telling someone how they have to fish and that one specific way is the only way to fish. If you find a different way then you are not truely fishing, there has to be something wrong with your way. Why then do we let a man fish the way he wants and we agree to disagree, but when it comes to religion we need to convert everyone to our way?

    Lisa