Owl hunting...WTF?

Discussion in 'Cast & Blast' started by Roper, Jul 23, 2013.

  1. Roper

    Roper Idiot Savant

    If you thought you have heard all the stupid ways the Feds can waste money, hold on, it gets really weird.


    I wonder what owl tastes like? Mice, voles, etc? :rolleyes:

    Can you limb shoot them, or do you have to get them on the fly? Can you bait them with dead mice?

    The best part is they won't be hunting them during the hatch...why not? Let the little buggers die too.
  2. Luke77

    Luke77 I hope she likes whitefish

    Yea, great idea right...kill an owl to save an owl. Makes sense.
  3. freestoneangler

    freestoneangler Not to be confused with Freestone

    We have pairs of these guys in the woods near us and they are really cool. We'd heard rumors about this last year... my wife is really pissed.
  4. David Dalan

    David Dalan 69°19'15.35" N 18°44'22.74" E

  5. Upton O

    Upton O Blind hog fisherman

    I saw this yesterday, too. What a screwed up situation and solution. I seem to remember something about two species in the same niche: one has to go according to the laws of nature and that being the "weaker" one. Could it be that folks really don't know enough about these two species to really understand what is going on? Naw, government agencies always have the right solution. And we're paying for this crap. Reminds me of the one of the dusky seaside sparrow subspecies that was down to a couple of males. Millions got spent trying to "back bred" the species using female sparrows of other subspecies. That didn't work well, either.
    Brady Burmeister likes this.
  6. David Dalan

    David Dalan 69°19'15.35" N 18°44'22.74" E

    I like the ESA. I think it is a great tool. But like any tool, if used by an idiot, it doesn't always work that well. I wish I had a better solution, but human activity has set the stage for this kind of madness.

    I actually think there are other places where aggressively managing a newly resident species would be a good idea. Say...sea lions at the locks and Bonneville? Caspian Turns on a mud pile made from dredging a river. Etc...
  7. Alex MacDonald

    Alex MacDonald Dr. of Doomology

    yet another complete "Charlie-foxtrot" idea from the "good idea fairy". the arrogance of these morons is beyond belief, and in this case, George Carlin was right; "Let them go gracefully". Good grief, I love it: "SAVE THE SPOTTED OWL-SHOOT ANOTHER OWL". Better yet, how about shooting the "good idea fairy" instead?:eek:
  8. Roper

    Roper Idiot Savant

    I'm not so sure I agree, I think the ESA is counter productive. Species have come and gone since time began. The ESA has rendered peoples property rights useless in too many instances and restricted use of resources and jobs...just ask a logger and the communities that used to thrive there . If the spotted owl vanished today would the world stop spinning?
  9. Alex MacDonald

    Alex MacDonald Dr. of Doomology

    99% of all species that have been here have gone extinct. I agree, Rick; what's so special about an owl? It's not like there's NOT another owl waiting in the wings (as it were:D). And you're spot-on about the elimination of most logging, especially on California's north coast. Towns like Weott, Rio Del, Scotia, and Orrick are almost wiped out. People's lives destroyed, their investment in their homes gone, their careers evaporated, their schools closed, all gone. And don't anyone give me this bullshit about "tourism" either. There ISN'T any there. And there never will be-too far from any large population centers, and difficult to get there.
  10. Vladimir Steblina

    Vladimir Steblina Retired Forester...now fishing instead of working

    The Wildlife Biologists that ran the spotted owl studies since mid-1980's really deserve credit for a MOST remarkable achievement. At the beginning of the issue it was always whether the spotted owl would survive or that sector of the timber industry dependent on public timber.

    However, the award really is for DOING BOTH!! They threw 30,000 high paying jobs down the toilet AND ran the spotted owl into extinction.

    BTW the issue of Barred Owls and Spotted Owls was raised by "minority biologists" in the early 1990's and was ignored. Barred owls are NOT native to the northwest and are an invasive species that migrated in from the mid-west.
  11. Gary Thompson

    Gary Thompson dirty dog

    First, save the trees to save the Spotted owl, now shoot the Barred owl to save the Spotted owl.
    I see this as a government agency playing God.
  12. Scott Salzer

    Scott Salzer previously micro brew


    Migrating to the area makes it a native, does it not? Many birds expand their range over time. If you brought a pair in and they took root, that would be invasive, like the eastern gray squirrel.
  13. Vladimir Steblina

    Vladimir Steblina Retired Forester...now fishing instead of working

    No....the migration was dependent on human settlement in the northern plains. That what a biologist told me.

    So hitching a ride on farms, how is that different than hitching a ride on boat??

    When I worked on the Colville Forest Plan the wildlife biologist insisted on setting aside 200,000 acres for the Barred Owl as habitat. I transfer to the Wenatchee and we write a document that recomends taking steps to "deal with the Barred Owl" as they pose a threat to the Spotted Owl.

    I think Aldo Leopold said it best...."you want to save all the pieces". Habitat changes and species will ebb and flow across the landscape. Extinction is forever. You cannot get it back once you lose it.

    Spotted Owl's are unique enough that they should be saved for THEIR sake. My sense is that a lot of environmental types don't care now.....since their motive was to eliminate timber harvest on Forest Service land.

    The Spotted Owl was a real mess. My minority opinion is that the spotted owl primary habitat is eastern Washington and northern California. However, all the studies started in western Oregon and Washington so everybody assumed that was their primary range. The first Spotted Owl in Washington was found at Blewett Pass at the turn of the century. The "expert" Federal scientists really paid little attention to owls in eastern Washington and California.

    Gary, as for playing GOD. That horse ran out of the barn a century ago. The reason the Federal Forest lands are such a battlefield for endangered species is they are the last major ecosystems in the United States to be affected by the hands of man.

    Most lands in the United States are NOT even close to the original ecosystems. In many cases, we do not even know what we lost.
    Dan Nelson, Islander and ribka like this.
  14. Roper

    Roper Idiot Savant

    Vladimir, do you think killing barred owls is a viable answer to "saving" the spotted owl?
  15. Jeremy Floyd

    Jeremy Floyd fly fishing my way through life

    I bet those flanks tie a mean whitefish colored carey special..
    Islander likes this.
  16. freestoneangler

    freestoneangler Not to be confused with Freestone

    Yeah, we should shoot these guys on sight...look what a nuisance they are :rolleyes: . The wife took these a couple weeks ago -- some of the hundreds she's taken of those sharing our domain. I wonder if the agency has mitigation plans should their newest hypothesis be wrong as well and the Barred Owl population crashes as a result of their $3M experiment... I know, let's start thinning the population of the agency.
    Owl1 web.jpg Owl2 web.jpg Owl3 web.jpg Owl4 web.jpg Owl5 web.jpg Owl6 web.jpg
  17. Vladimir Steblina

    Vladimir Steblina Retired Forester...now fishing instead of working

    Yes, but my opinion doesn't matter much.

    However, way back in spring of 1994 I was the lead writer on a scientific paper on the Spotted Owl in eastern Washington. The Wenatchee National Forest and the Forestry Sciences Lab in Wenatchee did NOT think that the President's Forest Plan and Recovery Plan was going to succeed in saving the Spotted Owl. So the Forest and the Lab put together an team to write a professional paper. I got to be the lead writer (author) simply because nobody else wanted to spend the time writing it!!

    Anyway the team had members from the Forest, the Sciences Lab, WDFW, NCASI and other scientific organizations.

    We did come up with a recommendation for the Barred Owl management. I need to find the paper and I will post the exact text, but the group did discuss shooting the Barred Owls. When an invasive species colonizes new habitat existing species are displaced. There are really very few options to removal of invasive species. They can out compete existing species in that habitat. We did discuss changing the habitat slightly to give the Spotted Owl an advantage, but really could not find what that would entail.

    The paper, however, is much more "proper" in its discussion of the issue and I believe the concept of lethal removal was never mentioned in the paper.

    Scientist are really poor at tolerating new opinions. The whole report was ignored by the "Gang of Four" and the Forest and Lab moved on to other issues. The Lead Scientist retired and spends his time surfing in Kona, some of the other Biologists finished up their research and retired or moved on to other jobs.

    However, they were right and the "Gang of Four" was wrong. But then I never did have much respect for the Gang of Four. John Gordon, excepted I never did meet him. Here is a link to a Yale Lovefest for the Gang of Four in 2001. It it worth reading in 2013. Jim Lyons was President Clinton's Under Secretary for Agriculture and a real good friend of Plum Creek!!

    Read the link a decade later: http://environment.yale.edu/gisf/files/pdfs/yff_reviews/05.02.pdf

    Like I said before the signature achievement of the "Gang of Four" was they destroyed 30,000 timber jobs in the Northwest AND the Spotted Owl !!! Good grief, chose one or the other....but BOTH??

    I wasted probably three or four professional years on the Spotted Owl. A waste of my time, taxpayer dollars, those families losing their means of financial support AND the Spotted Owl which is headed for extinction.
    Dan Nelson likes this.
  18. David Dalan

    David Dalan 69°19'15.35" N 18°44'22.74" E

    ESA listing is a tool. One that is not perfect, but a powerful one. There have been a number of fisheries changes as the result of federal listing, or the possibility of it happening. In my own area, the threat of action to save endangered bull trout lead (in part) to a very innovative basin wide water management group forming. Nobody got everything they wanted, but everyone came to the table and got something, and the process is ongoing. Irrigators, CTUIR, Cities, Fish. It ain't perfect, but it's pretty good. Without threats of Federal action, it would have never have happened. In that same vein, the flushing of water over dams, improved fish passage, etc. all flow (at least in part) from the use or threat of the hammer that is the ESA.

    The ESA (along with a slew of other federal programs) has been used to force the preservation of unique ecologies, defeating short term desires to monetize public natural resources. Like I said, not perfect but I fear what the world around me would look like without it.
  19. Vladimir Steblina

    Vladimir Steblina Retired Forester...now fishing instead of working

    It is a hammer. And when you have a hammer the solution to every problem is to pound something. ESA has been stretched and misused, but that is the world we live today. The problem with ESA is that it shifts the focus to individual species rather than ecosystems. So we focus on bits and pieces while the ecosystems go down the toilet. But I am not sure that most resource professionals and the public can understand ecosystem concepts where individual creatures that go "hoot" are political dynamite.

    There is nothing wrong with "monetizing public natural resources". Way back, in 1996 just after the Soviet Union ceased to exist I was talking to a Russian Forester about their interest in the US Forest Service. The Forest Service in 1996 had long ceased being a model Federal agency in the eyes of the American politicians and public.

    His reply was that the Communists set-up a natural resource management system that consisted of Natural Resource Exploitation areas and Nature Reserves. It is easy to ripped apart a natural landscape and move on to the next patch of ground. And that is what the Communists did. So all those Nature Reserves were reclassified as economic zones and literally destroyed. A AID Forester told me about flying in a helicopter in the Russian Far East for six hours and never getting out of the single clear cut.

    We are currently a wealthy society. But it is starting to look like we are turning a corner on that. The pressure will someday build to "exploit" our natural resources to maintain our "standard of living".

    The only President to order the Forest Service to cut above the sustain yield level was Jimmy Carter. In today's prices, $15 for a two by four was enough for Jimmy to abandon his "environmental values".

    In 2000, President Clinton suspended ESA as it "relates to the recovery of the Pacific Salmon" so BPA could ship electricity to Seattle and California. No a peep in complaint was heard.

    The city of San Francisco and their national politicians refuse to remove Hetch Hetchy Dam in Yosemite National Park. It is THEIRS, not a American public treasure!! That is not far removed from what happened in the Soviet Union.

    A strong system of public lands that protects natural resources and provides for "economic monetizing" of resources is really the only sustainable model for resource management in the long run.

    Oh and somewhere along the line we better teach our children a land ethic. Not environmental nonsense, but a land ethic. You know Aldo Leopold stuff rather than recycling!!
    Alex MacDonald and Islander like this.
  20. Roper

    Roper Idiot Savant

    Kids today have little interest in the land. It's not on their smart phone and they can't text it. Rural kids are moving to the cities to get jobs, what damned few there are. The urban tree huggers get in their Prius and visit the wilderness on the weekend. I sound like a doomsday prophet don't I? But look around and tell me if I'm wrong.

    The only "value" in land any more is for large corporations to rape and pollute. Pretty soon the "sheeple" will be in their little urban communities and few people will live "on the land". If one cares they might investigate Agenda 21 and see what the UN thinks "sustainable" means.