Owl hunting...WTF?

Discussion in 'Cast & Blast' started by Roper, Jul 23, 2013.

  1. freestoneangler

    freestoneangler Not to be confused with Freestone

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2006
    Messages:
    4,626
    Media:
    24
    Likes Received:
    922
    Location:
    Edgewood, WA
    Does that include the human species? ;)

    My problem with us scientists is that we fail to recognize (more like flat don't understand or choose to ignore) that every action has some reaction in the form of intended or unintended consequence. If one wants to make the argument that the "genie is out of the bottle" and the balance of nature has already been tipped, justifying that actions like this need to be taken to restore balance...my question is "do we know what the balance point is? New species are discovered and existing species go extinct... has something changed?

    In the case of the Barred Owls, do we know with certainty the reasons they migrated...might it have been the culmination of other well intended policies? I happen to believe in a power greater than man and that our constant meddling with nature does more harm than good.
     
  2. Vladimir Steblina

    Vladimir Steblina Retired Forester...now fishing instead of working

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2009
    Messages:
    821
    Media:
    1
    Likes Received:
    303
    Location:
    Wenatchee, WA
    Home Page:
    Well, the problem with most scientist is their science education is way to specialized. So they are flying blind on effects outside their area of expertise.

    There is no balance point ecologically. That concept went out the window when I was graduating in the early 1970's. Existing species do go extinct....because of humans. I don't find that a good thing. I find that a very troubling sign.

    Yes, Barred Owl migrated with settlement. You know Robins use to be a very rare bird since so little natural habitat is in meadow. Robins like humans.

    We humans have dramatically changed ecosystems. There really are NO natural ecosystems left in the lower 48 and probably elsewhere. That's ok as long as we keep track of what we are dong.

    Population. When the Sierra Club decided that population was NOT an environmental issue. That really was the end for many species.
     
    Jim Ficklin and airedale like this.
  3. Jim Ficklin

    Jim Ficklin Genuine Montana Fossil

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2008
    Messages:
    2,789
    Likes Received:
    974
    Location:
    Columbia Basin
    This world was a great place until we came along in hoards and started screwing it up. Fact is, now we're trying to fix what we broke, sometimes successfully . . . sometimes not . . . and sometimes via attempts that make no sense whatsoever.
     
  4. riseform

    riseform Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2007
    Messages:
    1,115
    Media:
    225
    Likes Received:
    320
    Location:
    Tacoma, WA
    Found this while walking a familiar stretch of woods recently. I suspect it is the owl I've been photographing for over a year now. It seems someone or something has already started the kill, only they got a Great Horned Owl in this case.
    [​IMG]
     
  5. freestoneangler

    freestoneangler Not to be confused with Freestone

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2006
    Messages:
    4,626
    Media:
    24
    Likes Received:
    922
    Location:
    Edgewood, WA
     
  6. Vladimir Steblina

    Vladimir Steblina Retired Forester...now fishing instead of working

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2009
    Messages:
    821
    Media:
    1
    Likes Received:
    303
    Location:
    Wenatchee, WA
    Home Page:
    [quote="Really? How then do you explain species going extinct before modern man?[/quote]

    Sorry, for the delay in answering you. Just got back from a cruise to Alaska with the family.

    As a professional Forester, it is really sad to see ALL the invasive species and changes to our ecosystems. The changes predicted under global warming are MUCH, MUCH less than those that occurred over the past one hundred years. So when I see a landscape I see what has been lost.

    Species have gone extinct on a regular basis due to climate change and other disruptive forces for millions of years. In my eyes, there is something fundamentally different with a species going extinct due to man. I think we do have an obligation for a land ethic. It's that Forester thing.....you know "Sand County Almanac" stuff. Worth reading: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Sand_County_Almanac

    Lots of folks think ESA has been a "pollitical" tool rather than a force for species preservation. I have my personal issues with ESA, but the goals of the legislation that we have an obligation to manage ecosystems with a land ethic I really do not have a problem with that.
     
  7. Alex MacDonald

    Alex MacDonald Dr. of Doomology

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2008
    Messages:
    3,541
    Media:
    16
    Likes Received:
    1,008
    Location:
    Haus Alpenrosa, Lederhosenland
    99% of all species that went extinct did so before the rise of humans, according to paleontologists. We've been witness to several new species going TU (passenger pigeons, for one), but not all that many when compared to the massive dieoffs the planet has experienced before. Vladimir, you're absolutely right when you mention a lack of land ethic, especially within city people. I constantly see clueless idiots wandering the forest behind my place, "communing" with nature, while their dogs run wild chasing anything that moves. For my money, it's the serious, dedicated fair-chase big game hunters who have the best forest ethics. I'm not talking about these morons who roar around on their ATV's, road-hunting, but the guys who shoulder a pack and head into the high country. The other side of this coin are the two "forest service" employees who, rumor has it, walked off from their campfire on the shore of Lake Wenatchee and left it to burn down three cabins!
     
  8. Dan Nelson

    Dan Nelson Hiker, Fisher, Writer, Bum

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2007
    Messages:
    853
    Media:
    1
    Likes Received:
    374
    Location:
    Puyallup, WA
    Home Page:

    The ESA has also been used to try to recover native anadromous fish runs. Should that effort be stopped?"If all our wild anadromous fish vanished today, would the world stop spinning?" If native wild salmon/steelhead are worth saving, why not native spotted owls? Put another way, if it's okay for introduced (through human-caused environmental disruptions) barred owls to replace native spotted owls, what's wrong with introduced hatchery stocks replacing wild native stocks of salmon/steelhead?

    I'm not trying to be (overly) argumentative here, but I'm curious what makes one native species more worthy of public support than another.
     
  9. Roper

    Roper Idiot Savant

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2004
    Messages:
    4,403
    Media:
    85
    Likes Received:
    941
    Location:
    Glenraven Ranch
    Dan, it would appear that our human spread into all environments may have introduced competition between the two types of owls. Does that now give us the right to wipe out the ones we brought with us (unintentionally)?

    BTW, I'm not going to debate fish issues here, I'll stick to owls. No, actually I think I'll say this, if the fish went away it would never compare to the problems that would follow should honey bees disappear...and they are in serious trouble. That's another problem we (scientists and chemists) created. Can we shoot the scientists and chemists...?
     
    Dan Nelson likes this.
  10. Dan Nelson

    Dan Nelson Hiker, Fisher, Writer, Bum

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2007
    Messages:
    853
    Media:
    1
    Likes Received:
    374
    Location:
    Puyallup, WA
    Home Page:
    On the owls, I'm of the opinion that yes, sometimes we do need to wipe out (or at least contain as much as possible) an introduced species. Barred owl populations should be curtailed in core spotted owl habitats, just as lake trout in Yellowstone Lake should be curtailed to help the native cutthroats survive.

    Regarding bees, I would agree with you. The threat facing our bee populations may be the greatest threat to our society today. Without our pollinators, agri-business -- and thus our core food channels -- is threatened. Those agri-chemists that seem to have helped create the severe decline in bee colonies have put us all at risk.
     

Share This Page