Poly leaders- Explanation please

Discussion in 'Spey Clave' started by Bob Jones, Dec 13, 2009.

  1. floatinghat Member

    Posts: 294
    near enough to Seattle
    Ratings: +3 / 0
    Also note that with a smaller less resistant fly the issue will not be the same. A lot of this comes back to one of the most basic things in flyfishing. Use equipment that can turn over your fly. Use a smaller, somewhat sparse, non/lightly weighted fly and they work great. A moving (escaping) fly isn't always a bad thing.
  2. fredaevans Active Member

    Posts: 3,116
    White City, Oregon, USA.
    Ratings: +118 / 0
    First my apoligies for forgetting to 'follow/follow up' with this thread.

    90+++% of the Rogue is excellent 2-hander water; just a question of 'how long' a rod you really need to be using. Save for the lower section above Gold Beach, a 12.5-14 foot rod is all you'll need to cover almost any section of the river you're standing in front of (and LOTS of 'Public Access!) so 'over-gunning' it is a waste of time/energy (Personal experience here only). As to floating poly leaders, the answer is yes, but not for winter fish. Just the 'style' of the fish we have, most tend to be 'bottom huggers' so running a floater/skater (save for late Fall) is a bit of a waste of time .. save "for the hunt."

    Poly leaders WILL limit the size of the fly you can use (flies the size of a 'dead bird' DO need a regular sink tip for 'turn over'), but more often that not, a huge fly (down here) is really not necessary. All that said, with a full tip OR a sinking Poly, I tend to use a 'Fred's Cheap Cheater' between the end of the floating head and the sinking bit. Depending upon the line/rod weight I'll use a 2-3 foot section of 25-30 pound Maxima MAIN LINE (Leader is too soft!!) between the floating bit and the sinking bit. This allows the 'head' to fall away (darned quick I might add) from the 'floater,' that wants to float/hold the sinking bit up. Counter Productive to say the least. You'll get down faster and stay down longer ... that said, 'hyidrolics' (sp?)will eventually take over and pull the whole thing up towards the surface. But, you will get down faster/stay there longer ... which is the whole point of a sink tip?

    Hope that adds something.
    fae

    If the 'cheater' tends to hinge when you cast (SLOW THE CAST DOWN!!!) just shorten the thing up until you hit the 'sweet spot.'
  3. fredaevans Active Member

    Posts: 3,116
    White City, Oregon, USA.
    Ratings: +118 / 0
    Good question Mr M., good question. What folks really don't know is that 'sinking anything,' save for lead core (you have a treat if you've never used them for 'heads') really DON'T sink that far, regardless of 'weight.' Bob (Robert) Pauli and a few others did a heck of a 'under water' study of how well do 'sink tips' actually work (water speed/flow was a major factor) but the actual sink rate/penetration was FAR LESS than the package would suggest. This was further backed up at one of the Sandy River Spey 'Claves where one of the Presenters (Scott McDonald?) made a similar point. Regardless of the 'weight' of the head, you'd be darned lucky to get much below 3 feet unless the flow was really pretty slow (walking speed or less). An 'eye opener' for me to say the least.

    During the winter, I'll use a sinking tip (of one kind or another) AND a weighted fly. Why a weighted fly? Because 'water flow' moving against a bit of leader will tend to force the fly up into the water column; a weighted fly will (tend) to drop it below the end of the 'tip.' Just my .02 cents of observations.
    fae

    Edit: "Also note that with a smaller less resistant fly the issue will not be the same. A lot of this comes back to one of the most basic things in flyfishing. Use equipment that can turn over your fly. Use a smaller, somewhat sparse, non/lightly weighted fly and they work great. A moving (escaping) fly isn't always a bad thing."

    Excellent point!
    Fred
  4. Ed Call Mumbling Moderator

    Posts: 17,399
    Kitsap Peninsula
    Ratings: +1,357 / 9
    Thanks DocDoc.
    FAE, thanks to you too, but I was really hoping to move away from heavy barbell eyes that are just a bitch to cast. I'd rather cast a sink tip and lesser body weighted fly.
  5. James Waggoner Active Member

    Posts: 776
    wa
    Ratings: +40 / 0
    Fred, I like the idea of having the mono section between the head and the tip. I'll have to give that a try.
  6. HauntedByWaters Active Member

    Posts: 2,748
    Bellingham
    Ratings: +103 / 0
    Choose your tip mostly to either turn over your fly, or to add mass to you presentation allowing you to suspend more running line off the water and fish further away or slow the swing in faster water. T14 is great for "anchoring" your presentation out there and keeping it down in faster flows.

    Depth and delivery is all line control and reading water.
  7. Panhandle Active Member

    Posts: 4,103
    Selkirk Mountains, Idaho Panhandle
    Ratings: +23 / 0
    not if you have the wrong sink tip, which is the whole point of this thread.
  8. Bob Jones Still truckless now farther away

    Back before this current stuff was around, I'm trying to remember. We used to fish for chum in Oregon on small rivers mostly. What this all reminds me of is that we used a floating running line and cut a piece of Plion to splice in about the depth of the river. To this we spliced a few feet of Quick Decent which at that time came in 25 ft lengths. That was evidently like using the newer t-14. The Plion hinged down the depth of it's length and the QD was various wts that we used based on water speed. I'm not sure my memory is intirely correct, I know that the Plion was clear and the QD was black for the heaviest then brown and up the scale by IPS. I have to think that this is when we had to make all of our own shooting heads. Anybody here remember this. thanks Bob
  9. HauntedByWaters Active Member

    Posts: 2,748
    Bellingham
    Ratings: +103 / 0
    Bad choice of words with "delivery". I guess I meant something like "drift".
  10. fredaevans Active Member

    Posts: 3,116
    White City, Oregon, USA.
    Ratings: +118 / 0
    With a 'cheater' of some sort; highly likely due to the far smaller cross section.
    fae
  11. James Waggoner Active Member

    Posts: 776
    wa
    Ratings: +40 / 0
    Fred, I tried the 2' of mono between the tip and the head and it didn't get any deeper. I even let the line out and let it hang down and waded down to check it out and the mono, head and tip are all at the same angle, in a perfect line...leading me to believe it doesn't work as you discribed. Now if I had say 15-20' of mono different story but 2' is just enough to make casting alittle funky at times, 5' may be a disaster. What it does do... it in effect lengthens your tip, so perhaps 8' of t-14 yields 10' results....maybe. But I'd rather cast 10' of t-14 to get the same or better result.

    James.
  12. speyfisher Active Member

    Posts: 1,056
    State of Jefferson U.S.A.
    Ratings: +136 / 3
    Heaven knows, I've tried. But other than casting & nice turn over I cannot, for the life of me, find a good reason to use either the floating or any of the itermediate poly leaders. For greased line work, a nicely tied tapered mono leader does fine. Want to work a little deeper? Use the same leader. Want to fish the fly on a riffle hitch? Same leader. Trim it back, or add length according to the size of the fly. Keep it simple. Spend more time with your fly in the water. Less time fiddling with equipment.

    Nothing gets down better than lead and mono. Fred's "cheater" is 1/2 of that combination. Ed Ward type tips vs. the same length of different density T- stuff is a different animal.
  13. shotgunner Anywhere ~ Anytime

    Posts: 481
    45th Parallel NW Michigan
    Ratings: +23 / 1
    Fred's 'cheater' system

    I've used Fred's plan often. Originally recommended for Polys back when the heaviest of them was none to heavy, Airflo's @ 5' & 10' lengths. Was shown the same idea by an old timer, Bob O'Brien, up in N. Ontario.

    Single hand combo I used this fall off an Intermediate: 28" looped .018 Flouro [stiffness, fine dia & sink] 4' of Customcut 200 and 5' additional tapered flouro, inc tip. Low impact and digs down nice.
  14. Bob Jones Still truckless now farther away

    Fred and all of you others thanks for the input and questions to stir up more talk. I'm deffinately going to have to work at it but theres a lot of things to concider in these threads. I'm sure I'll find what I need there. I think others did too. Bob
  15. freestoneangler Not to be confused with Freestone

    Posts: 4,002
    Edgewood, WA
    Ratings: +721 / 1
    Holy shit, this forum gives me a headache! The permutations keep on coming...this is like drinking from a fire hose. Long belly vs. short, scandi vs. skagit, I think I'd better just go out and spend some time developing a cast with my basic, unaltered equipment. If I read too many more of these threads, I'll be making a listing in the classifieds:eek:

    Seriously, I do want to thanks those who have replied to my posts on questions concerning gear recommendations, but I'd better lay off this forum for awhile...