RE: Lake Lenore Poachers

Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by miyawaki, Jul 28, 2013.

  1. cmann886

    cmann886 Active Member

    Kinda of light??? should have been 10X that amount and perhaps confiscating the "tools" used including the transportation used.
     
  2. zen leecher aka bill w

    zen leecher aka bill w born to work, forced to fish

    triploidjunkie likes this.
  3. bennysbuddy

    bennysbuddy the sultan of swing

    great idea Ira, there are to many people fishing there anyway. I don't fish there so shooting all offenders is okay by me....
     
  4. Charles Sullivan

    Charles Sullivan dreaming through the come down

    Although you rarely write anything here that I think makes sense, I suspect you are a very law abiding man. You likely follow the law for reasons other than just the penalty. Criminals are of a different mind set in general. Don't assume their decisions are made using the same thought processes and info you do.

    You can have Sharia law based punishments. If you think that works better than you and I just disagree. I'll take good old secular, inocent till proven guilty, attempt at rehabilitation, equal rights for both sexes etc kind of justice. I kind of think it makes for a better country. Honestly, I think our justice system is way better. Way better.

    I also suspect crimes are way under reported in Saudi Arabia for cultural reasons, including the relatively harsh penalties. Seems to me they have their share of criminals as well, especially for the amount of affluence in their relatively small country.

    If you want to make the case that it's a better system go ahead. I'd like to hear that one.

    Go Sox,
    cds
     
    Josh and Eric Denny like this.
  5. Kevin J. Burnham

    Kevin J. Burnham Active Member

    Just become friends with them on FB. Then F*ck with them !!!!
     
  6. freestoneangler

    freestoneangler Not to be confused with Freestone

    I'll stand by my statement that being tough on crime is a deterrent regardless of ones mindset or system employed. Sorry you have problems making sense of my posts...your ability to successfully operate at a higher level of discourse and debate will come with practice.
     
  7. Irafly

    Irafly Active Member

    Can we please not make this another freestone vs. Charles rigamarole? You two should just kiss already for grists sakes!
     
    Skysoldier likes this.
  8. Charles Sullivan

    Charles Sullivan dreaming through the come down

    Damn IRA, you punctuate and captalize well.

    Go Sox,
    cds
     
  9. Thom Collins

    Thom Collins Active Member

    Don't forget, it's called the Criminal Justice System, not the Victim Justice System.
     
  10. bennysbuddy

    bennysbuddy the sultan of swing

    Thats what happens when you teach kids for a living, people expect you to be able to read & write.. Ingnorant people like me end up as commercial fishermen & then Boeing employees when they are to old to fish for a living.
     
    Irafly likes this.
  11. Charles Sullivan

    Charles Sullivan dreaming through the come down

    I thought he just waited around watching bobbers all day.


    Go Sox,
    cds
     
  12. 10incher

    10incher Active Member

    Illegally kept dead fish = Death

    Forget to pinch your barb = Death

    As someone who has honestly forgotten to pinch, I'm thinking this might be a wee tad disproportionate. I could understand a good hobble-ing though ;)

    I've mentioned before that I try to pinch my barbs in a way that leaves them a little fat. But I actually only do this when I "meat fish" for salmon. In Ca. the game wardens will run a cotton ball over your pinch. If it snags too much cotton you might get in trouble. I've tested my pinches with a cotton ball for this very reason.

    I think a good punishment would be 1) permanent forfeiture of any and all fishing tackle and vehicles used to perpetrate the crime. 2) assess the damage and charge poachers the full cost. As in: You kept an illegal fish = That fish must be replaced. Which means the cost of rearing/raising to size and the cost to have an employee in a fish truck drive it to the watershed. 3) Loss of fishing privileges for a number of years to be determined by the severity of your crime. 4) Mandatory jail time of five days for every dead fish. Probation for non 'dead fish' related crimes. 5) A flat fine of $250 for any violation plus another $250 for every dead fish.

    I think these penalties push the edge, but not so far that you couldn't get honest folks to agree with them. And imagine what it would mean to the poachers in the OP!
     
    dfl likes this.
  13. Jamie Wilson

    Jamie Wilson Active Member

    The way it stands now - the "punishment" is bull shit and there is absolutely no deterring factor - so it never stops
     
  14. David Loy

    David Loy Senior Moment

    "Reeling in Russia" (book) revealed how F'd up the system is over there, and provides insight into these guys mindset. Completely lawless when it comes to resource management. Gotta slap them hard to get their attention. I doubt this did the trick.
     
    Lugan and Ron McNeal like this.
  15. Charles Sullivan

    Charles Sullivan dreaming through the come down

    I think you are close to getting it here. People generally vuilate laws that do not fit into their general belief systems/ ethics. Punishments rarely come into play as deterrants unless they truly think that they may get caught. Most people don't commit crimes because of their own values.

    Think for a moment about how harsh dui punishments are, yet people drive drunk all the time. They don't believe they'll get caught and they don't think that they are hurting anyone by driving. So the car gets home and no one gets hurt, most of the time.

    In this case the poachers were likely behaving within their own social norms. They also didn't think they'd be caught. Do any of you actually think for 1 moment that they researched the potential punishment?

    Go Sox,
    cds
     
    dfl, 10incher and Irafly like this.
  16. shadowcast

    shadowcast Member


    Studies have shown that harsher penalties don't deter crime because criminals are rarely aware of the laws and don't plan on getting caught. Ok...so what. The penalty still has to be commensurate with the crime. Would you rather we lash each buttock and sent them on their way with a lollipop? What's your point?
     
    dfl likes this.
  17. bennysbuddy

    bennysbuddy the sultan of swing

    How about we deport them to russia ,where this type of behavior is acceptable ?
     
  18. Patrick Allen

    Patrick Allen Active Member

    I think we all are reacting over the top (self included) because this is something we all care deeply about. In reality if these guys stole say 700 snickers bars the penalty would have probably been the same. The judge looked at this probably like he looks at the 20 other cases of petty non violent crime he sees every day.
     
  19. Vladimir Steblina

    Vladimir Steblina Retired Forester...now fishing instead of working


    Seventy plus years of Communism really did a number on Russia environmentally. Not to mention the impact on the people. When I was there in 1976 and 1996 it was strictly survival mode for the people. Then you would see the Soviet environmental practices and anything like poaching was really small potatoes in the scheme of things.

    When I came to this country in 1956 there was a great emphasis on teaching me American history and values. I was even sent to a speech therapist in public school to learn to pronounce English words correctly.

    These days we assume that everybody is just like US. They're NOT. They may have the same hopes and dreams, but the path to getting there is based on their 'home" culture.

    Most of those cultures do not operate like this one. So we really should not be surprised by events such as this. In my more cynical moments I just chalk it up to the benefits of cultural diversity.
     
  20. David Loy

    David Loy Senior Moment

    Yes, in a way. The government officials in charge of the resource are lining their pockets, across the board. You'd be in trouble if you didn't pay the graft. Keep in mind these "officials" are thousands of miles from Moscow, actually and/or figuratively. And that the government is broke and many employees aren't getting paid any other way. There is zero attempt to clean up waste areas or perpetuate fisheries. Kamchatka is only important because of incoming dollars, and that even begrudgingly as I understand it.

    Good points Vladimir. I'll venture that things went downhill since 1956 (probably after getting better in the 60s). I would imagine people cared about things in the 50s through the 70s but are disillusioned now. But, I wasn't there and have only read this book.