Restaurant serving wild steelhead

Discussion in 'Steelhead' started by TomB, Mar 19, 2007.

  1. HauntedByWaters Active Member

    Posts: 2,723
    Bellingham
    Ratings: +70 / 0
    I think it is REDICULOUS that I can't legally lift a wild steelhead out of the water for a photo within WA State and YET I can go to a restaurant and eat it..........WTF!?!?

    *I know the history of this topic fairly well and the Boldt decision et cetera I just can't stomach this paradox without tasting acid* :mad:
  2. TomB Active Member

    Posts: 1,620
    seattle,wa
    Ratings: +56 / 0
    well, if the rule does what it is supposed to, which is reduce C&R impact, then I have no problem with it...a lower C&R impact results in more fishing to reach the same mortality which translates to longer seasons for C&R fishing (longer to reach our 50% of allowable take).....IF of course, the rule doesn't reduce C&R mortality, then it is pretty useless, regardless though, its the law.

    Now the 50% of allowable take....well in the case of the hoh, i would point out that allowable take, even as liberally as defined as by the state and tribes, has been exceeded most years recently...that to me, is not ok.
  3. sjterry Sr. Lurker

    Posts: 425
    Bellevue, WA
    Ratings: +0 / 0

    Les

    you mentioned an e-mail tree. what is it? I would have been interested in sending a message as well. e-mail input on issues is one easy way to get involved. Thanks for your efforts.
  4. Daryle Holmstrom retiredfishak

    Posts: 2,572
    Mount Vernon, WA
    Ratings: +105 / 0
    Think we should ban free speech and all photos and just go by hear say. Let me hear a yea
  5. fredaevans Active Member

    Posts: 3,079
    White City, Oregon, USA.
    Ratings: +106 / 0
    Exactly!

    Several years back I was at my local Albertson's super market and noticed they were selling 'Wild Steelhead' in the meat department. Asked for the store manager to join me in conversation. Pointed out that is was a major fish and game violation to sell same here in Oregon. MAJOR fine PER FISH. Also pointed out that a lot of his customers fish for steelhead and we're required to turn all 'wild' (unclipped fish) back into the river. As a group, we be pretty 'unhappy' to find a major chain selling what 'we' (rightfully so) can't keep.

    End result was he called their 'head-shed' and asked them to check it out ... two days later there wasn't a bit of 'wild steelhead' under any counter, any place in the State.:beer2:

    Fred
  6. HauntedByWaters Active Member

    Posts: 2,723
    Bellingham
    Ratings: +70 / 0
    I agree with you 100%. But surely you must see how comedic it is that we can't lift a fish out of the water for a photo and yet we can eat it in a restaurant. I think it is an outrage.

    Why not make the law something like this: The fish may never be in a net even if the fish remains in the water. The fish must always be held above water 1 foot deep. The fish cannot be out of the water for more than 5 seconds.

    Even though people may not follow it word for word or exactly, I think by the requests made, they will understand the DOs and DON'Ts of catching and releasing a fish properly.

    No more:
    *Kicking wild fish up onto the rocks or bringing them in too shallow.
    *Getting them in a net that strips off their slime.
    *Holding them out of the water for too long suffocating them.

    A law worded something like that makes a lot more sense to me because it serves to educate.

    Also, I was under the impression that the current law was itended to keep wild fish from being netted, hauled into a boat, and photographed 20 times. Am I wrong?
  7. East Fork Active Member

    Posts: 1,200
    Vancouver, WA
    Ratings: +2 / 0
    Hey Tom, tell us again how not lifting hatchery steelhead out the water reduces the C&R impact on wild fish :)
  8. Coach Duff Banned or Parked

    Posts: 1,272
    Kailua Hawaii
    Ratings: +6 / 0
    There's no need to take a hatchery steelhead out of the water. You can bleed that mutant rat right there, and then throw it in the fish box where it belongs. Now, knowing what we know about hatchery fish, why do some of our esteemed colleagues release them, giving them a chance to spawn with our natives and produce offspring that have 0 chance of survival. Give it to a neighbor, a food bank, hell fertilize the home garden, but why release it? To feel conservation like? Just wondering out loud boys (and girls).:beer2:
  9. James Mello Inventor of the "closed eye conjecture"

    Posts: 2,781
    Tacoma
    Ratings: +85 / 0
    I don't necessarily agree with release of hatchery fish, but I do let them go sometimes. In general it's because I can't really use it, or because they are part of a specific fishery (the Kalama summer runs being the best example). In no particular order here are some other reasons:

    1) You don't need the fish, and killings something just to waste it doesn't sit well with you.

    2) For additional sport in the whole matter. The Kalama summer runs are a perfect example. You can catch the same hatchery fish multiple times and there is temporal and spatial seperation of the fish.

    3) There is no native run on said river, so returning it does nothing to hurt wild populations. This is generally more true of summer runs than winter runs.

    4) You don't view wild versus hatchery as a big deal and only care about the fishery from a sportsman s perspective.

    5) You may be uneducated on the matter.

    What ever the reason, they exist, and I'm sure there are others. Some are based in beliefs, while others may be based in ignorance.

    -- Cheers
    -- James
  10. chadk Be the guide...

    Posts: 5,057
    Snohomish, WA.
    Ratings: +41 / 0
    Good points.

    But don't forget:

    * you are OK with hurting, scaring, and tiring a fish via a hook and line, but you don't have the heart to actually kill another living creature...

    * fish are too icky to touch, let alone get blood and guts on your hands or $600 simms waders :eek:

    * you are actually not even sure how to clean a fish - the deck on on the guided\charter trips always took care of that part...

    * Fish are people too!! :hmmm:

    * Karma :rofl:

    * Reincarnation - that steelhead could be your deceased relative!! :confused:

    * ecco-terrorism \ sabbotage - you purposely WANT the fish to breed with and wipe out the native fish. C&R is for wimps. WSR is for sissies. Bonking hatchery brats is what puts food on the table and keeps us guides in business (it's what our customers want, dammit)
  11. fredaevans Active Member

    Posts: 3,079
    White City, Oregon, USA.
    Ratings: +106 / 0
    I release probably 98% of all the steelhead I beach, native or hatchery. Reason? The 'brood stock' the hatchery fish are taken from WERE from wild stock native to the river. You'll find a similar thing going on in most Southern Oregon rivers.

    Personally I think that's the real key vis a vis C&R on many rivers. If the hatchery fish are not 'initially native' to the stream .... turn on the BBQ.
  12. fredaevans Active Member

    Posts: 3,079
    White City, Oregon, USA.
    Ratings: +106 / 0
    We 'agree to disagree.'

    Really? Do you ask? I can't say I know a lot of Guides on a personal basis, but I do know some (many of the best of the best) that actually have a "two price system." One for 'kill,' one for C&R. Many of their regular customers choose the C&R even if they pay 'full price.' On the Rogue (this from memory only) you are "allowed" to kill up to 5 'native' fish during the winter season. But darned few actually end up in the stew pot.

    The good thing about this (there are up/down years) is over the long haul our runs of both summer and winter steelhead are going up, not down. (Wish I could say the same thing about the fall Kings; that one's got everyone scratching their collective heads.)

    http://www.dfw.state.or.us/fish/fish_counts/gold_ray_dam.asp Gold Ray dam is the only fish counter in the whole system and is located about 5 miles north of Medford (and usually behind in its numbers) and shows just the fish that have gone into the top 30 miles of river. For a more current count call: 800 472 2434.

    No 'accurate' counts for the Applegate, Illinois, etc., that I'm aware of.
    Fred
  13. chadk Be the guide...

    Posts: 5,057
    Snohomish, WA.
    Ratings: +41 / 0
    Fred, those were not my views, but rather those I can imagine others might have :)

    One more that I don't think was specifically called out - what if the run seems late or possibly a 'no show' and the hatchery is worried it may not meet it's egg count goals. Some may release the brats until the hatchery at least projects that their goals will definately be met. Then it's bonking time.
  14. Wayne Jordan Active Member

    Posts: 1,061
    Ratings: +14 / 0
    So can someone explain the reasoning behind why the state is still stocking hatchery fish if they are so detrimental to native fish that are still present in rivers? I’ve lived in the Northwest now for almost four years and have heard a few different stories…

    Thank you in advance.
  15. Coach Duff Banned or Parked

    Posts: 1,272
    Kailua Hawaii
    Ratings: +6 / 0
    Don't forget now Fred, we are in Washington where for decades we have decided we are smarter than nature and have transplanted stocks from different rivers and thrown those seeds all over the state so we can "improve" the native stocks. A fine example of our genious would be planting Washougal stock in the Stilly so we could catch a bigger Steelhead than those small natives which are always hovering right around the critical mark now in numbers. Throw in our fin clipping program and the Boldt Decision and we often have no idea what the hell we are catching or where it came from or if it is wild or hatchery. But then every true steelheader can tell the difference between a hatchery or a wild fish just by "playing" it.:D Some rivers used tethered brood stock (Sauk), some used fish from a different river, some are completely artificial runs , some are pretty wild , some are both and some we have no clue. We declare escapement by sound, scientific methods;) and we have a very systematic system to count the amount of escapement caught by both tribal and non-tribal entities.:rofl: And now our latest crusade is to boycott restaurants that sell wild steelhead and pressure them when it is totally legal instead of contacting the tribe that sold it to them. So when the restaurants of our great state refuse to sell wild steelhead anymore, the void will be filled by the Chinese, Koreans or if we are really lucky the Japanese. Our causes are always noble and I am proud to be part of the crew that is on this board, but fellas, our co-stewards (especially on the Hoh) don't seem to really care. They always find a buyer. How do we begin to pressure the other 50 percent? The state? Can you pressure a sovereign nation without being called a racist or challenge the "way of life" argument in 2007? A hat's off to everyone, especially my fishing buddy back home Marty Leith who was the guy who actually went to the restaurant and started this, but I've seen this a dozen times in the last decade and next year it will come back around again. We shut down a fish monger or restaurant, pat each other on the back and toast the wild steelhead and ignore the other hundred that continue to do it. This is the third time for this company alone! Les will tell you that. Its kind of like throwing the small time coke dealers in jail and yucking it up, while the bastards in Columbia and Peru who are shipping tons upon tons of the shit go unchecked for years. The war on drugs hasn't gone anywhere, and neither has this.
  16. James Mello Inventor of the "closed eye conjecture"

    Posts: 2,781
    Tacoma
    Ratings: +85 / 0
    Excellent ideas expressed out loud, but all of this doesn't help much unless we can come up with some answers. I myself would rather have the small time guys educated via a grassroots movement than not. Bemoaning the fact things are out of wack is fine, but at some point action has to start *somewhere*...

    -- Cheers
    -- James
  17. Coach Duff Banned or Parked

    Posts: 1,272
    Kailua Hawaii
    Ratings: +6 / 0
    No "bemoaning" James, none at all. We need to put down our thousand self serving, fractured goals and beliefs and put the muscle in one direction, step by step. We all do our part, sometimes alone, sometimes together, but never fully unified and with resolve. There is no bemoaning. Just reality.
    Big difference between the two. I've already been through this stop the restaurants selling wild fish crusade more than a decade ago, and nothing has really changed. That's reality, not bemoaning. Duff
  18. Be Jofus G Banned or Parked

    Posts: 2,051
    Washington
    Ratings: +53 / 0
    I'm no law expert or anything but my guess would be that a lawsuit/s would have to result in a decision/s that somehow conflicted with the boldt decision. Then said case or cases could be used a precedence to reverse the decision alltogeather? Maybe one of the Law guys on this board could clear that up, tell me I'm full of it, or even better figure out a way to pull it off.:confused:

    Yes, every other nation in the world does it to the United States every day.
  19. Derek Day Rockyday

    Posts: 566
    Olympia
    Ratings: +142 / 0
    If their way of life isn't sustainable, they shouldn't be allowed to practice it. How do we challenge the way of life argument?--reason. To hell with multiculturalism, we need consistent standards for everyone.

    No killing wild steelhead unless the best available science (or an EIS) deems that a specific stock can support a sustainable yield! Either that or we could prohibit the sale in WA or the US even, tribes couldn't export it, and it can't be transported in the US, off the reservations.

    If you can't reasonably defend your "way of life" as either harmless or necessary should you be able to practice it? The practice of killing wild fish from depressed stocks as a "way of life" should be allowed to recede gracefully into the past--we just plain know better.


    By the way, does anyone know specifically of any cases which challenged the Boldt decision? Has it been challenged recently? It seems that more recently federal courts have been more friendly to our salmon, at least those that are ESA listed.
  20. Coach Duff Banned or Parked

    Posts: 1,272
    Kailua Hawaii
    Ratings: +6 / 0
    Marlon Brando and Bob Satiacum, the Nisqually tribe, the Puyallup tribes, Clyde Warrior. "Fish ins", arrests, gunshots, you name it. If you don't know any of the above, and don't understand what the tribes had to go through to get the Boldt Decison and the treaties honored, than you don't understand what it will take to get things done right. It will not happen by slow litigaiton and "understanding" and "teamwork". The last wild rivers in Washington creep towards the point of no return and the nets keep going in every year both offshore and in the rivers themselves. Call me an extremist, call me militant, but desperate times take desperate measures. I ponder this daily, and am not sure where to start, but I will return home someday and my kids will be grown, and I swear I will somehow raise awareness nationwide to put everyone (that means everyone, this is not about just the tribes) on the carpet and explain their conservation practices in my beloved state, re-entroduce talks about Boldt and his Alzheimer based decision and what "way of life" means today. If I end up in the bottom of a river, it will save my wife the time and effort of sprinkling my ashes on the Sauk, because that's the plan anyways. That is if there are any runs left by that time. Politically correct is another word for no balls. It makes things okay that moment, but hurts everyone more than the truth in the end. In Western Washington politically correct is a weapon that the "educated" use to protect special interest, the destruction of nature, the slaughtering of wild fish runs and something the tribes figured out a long time ago was their best friend. At least the last two posters have the nuts to question this crap. Most of you give the old "don't even go there" response. Or I can be politically correct, except things the way they are and meet my children and grandchildren in Oregon and California when we want to experience world class C&R fishing, and feel the magic of an "alive" river which is pretty much how it is anyways. Tight lines Coach Duff