Restricting Guides Services on Some Rivers?

Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by dryflylarry, Feb 28, 2011.

  1. Dustin Bise

    Dustin Bise Active Member

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    I promise you I will poach the first "guide only river"

    fuck the idea that you have to be able to afford to pay a guide to go fish somewhere.

    Unless of course the guides were "free" and a lottery system was put inplace.


    In fact, I think a lottery system might be the best for the steelhead rivers, like there is for wilderness use.
     
  2. dryflylarry

    dryflylarry "Chasing Riseforms"

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    Guides seem to cater to mostly the "well to do" don't they? I don't like that concept... leaves out retired guys like me.
     
  3. Brett Angel

    Brett Angel Member

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    If the availability of a public resource is being limited by a for-profit group these groups should be limited/regulated. The general public should not have to compete for access to a public resource with a for-profit group.

    Guide only rivers? Would these guides be required to pay more into the system for a guide license? Required to contribute to conservation groups? Maintain boat launches and all other public access resources? Would their licenses fees etc cover the cost to maintain the hatchery programs on these rivers? Who would manage/regulate these rivers and guides? The same people currently manage and regulate the rivers? Etc? Etc? Etc? Etc?
     
  4. Rob Ast

    Rob Ast Active Member

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    I think this is actually a very good solution to limit over-use of a public resource. Similar to hunting licenses currently. There could be an online registration system similar to the campground system with a first-come first-served priority, or some kind of lottery (perhaps for the more desired dates).
     
  5. Derek Young

    Derek Young 2011 Orvis Endorsed Fly Fishing Guide Of The Year

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    You see what you did there?
     
  6. Ed Call

    Ed Call Mumbling Moderator Staff Member

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    Very interesting Mr. Bandy. I wonder if this could work and have some flexibility applied to standards based on the fish populations/run strength for various waters. I'm not anti-guide by any means, although as a humble single income family I think I'm less capable, fiscally, of hiring a guide. I respect that those that I have met or shared time on the water with, steelhead and trout systems, are trying hard to make a living. I admire their ethics, stewardship to the resouces and such. I know that there may be some that are just in it for a buck, but I don't think any of the ones I've met fit that mold.

    Management could be challenging because rather than limit the number of boats on a river, wouldn't you more likely be limiting the number of boats on each stretch of a river? You would not want to be boat number 15 of 15 boats allowed on a whole river and find that the other 14 are in front of you. (Some individual trip planning can prevent this to some degree, but not entirely because you don't know where anyone else is going for sure.)

    Permitting systems are in use on a lot of river systems for recreational use already. What are some experiences with those systems, do they keep down the crowds, the litter, the camping pressure? How many get left out in the cold by not getting access to these public waters?

    Balancing use so that recreational anglers and guides can find a way to make this work and reduce pressure on fish stocks could be good. Of course I think that it might be too complex a process for any enforcement agency to embrace and implement. I also think that each system should be recognized as having a different tolerable threashold for pressure. How many boats/anglers is that? Would bank anglers have to be considered in this system too, getting tags as well?

    I've never participated in any beat system (except for the Project Healing Waters Two Fly Tournament...) or permit system for river usage. I don't know much about them but if there is a way to balance all the players in the game then perhaps there is some benefit in such a system. I look forward to reading more!
     
  7. Bob Jones

    Bob Jones Still truckless now farther away

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    We all need to concider the survival of the fish. That means that we have to stop being selfish and greedy and work together, determine whhat will help the fish survive and make that iinto law. THen work togeather to stop poaching, clean up the lakes and streams and maybe even stop fishin some streams some years. There are some ideas suggested that seem good and others worth trying but we need to START NOW and work togeather. I like the Deschutes system having fished it for years with the limits and not fishing from a floating device but there are other things mentioned here that sound good too.THe Guides still seam to get a fair amount of business too and we've got to leave them some chance to make a living and help improve the fishing too. !! happy fishing!! or not
     
  8. Charles Sullivan

    Charles Sullivan dreaming through the come down

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    Eliminate nymphing or at least lead. They'd be fewer guides rowing clients into fish.

    Go Sox,
    cds
     
  9. dryflylarry

    dryflylarry "Chasing Riseforms"

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    I like this idea among others. I like Jeff's proposals, Mumbles concerns, and I like Bob Jones idea of closing a river. I could stand a river closing for one year... what the heck. Anything helps. Don't get me wrong, I would thoroughly enjoy a day on the river with a guide... a place that wasn't crowded of course and pounded to death!
     
  10. Steve Call

    Steve Call Active Member

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    Managing, monitoring and enforcement would be a challenge. I think the Deschutes River program of no fishing from boats does more to level the playing field.

    Lets faced it there are at least three classes of fishermen:
    1) those that can afford to hire a guide to take them on a river in a boat;
    2) those that can afford there own boat which gives them access to the same water as a guide; and,
    3) those that can't afford 1 or 2 and fish from the bank and have limited access to fishing water. In terms of numbers, this is the largest group of anglers.



    This discussions seems to be about groups 1 and 2.
     
  11. Philster

    Philster Active Member

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    This^^^^^^^ on every river in WA
    Guides have to make a living too. But if fishing were limited to bank/wade things would be much better.
     
  12. JesseC

    JesseC Active Member

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    I think the no fishing from a floating device is a bad idea. There's a lot of spots and runs that are only accessible by boats to fish. Fishing from a boat spreads out the pressure. Otherwise, you have bank accessible runs that just get pounded to hell. Talking mostly from the perspective of a trout guy here.

    Guiding is a fact of life. Everyone has to learn how to respectfully share. People that whore out a resource should be accordingly called out. We should police each other through direct confrontation and feedback - not a suggestion to create a thousand new rules. Holy shit the reg book is already too complex.

    Just my opinion.
     
  13. ribka

    ribka Active Member

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    Ignore him. He thinks it is his right to profit off a PUBLIC resource. There are some great Guides on here and some of the Guides like to bully people.
     
  14. dryflylarry

    dryflylarry "Chasing Riseforms"

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    Dang it, Charles Sullivan. Your idea is really sticking in my head! It makes more sense the more I think about it (even tho I'm a dryfly freak, but not always). There would be a much better survival rate of the trout, except for the days we slay them with dries. But, think about it, you are right, fewer guides rowing clients into fish!! Good job! I like it, even tho there are further solutions to be had.
     
  15. Plecoptera

    Plecoptera Active Member

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    Thats the point. Part of the problem in a lot of high pressure rivers is that the fish get completely hammered and have little to no refuge from the bombardment of lures/flies. Gives them more "safe" places to feed without getting hooked every other day.

    I fish a couple different trout rivers that have this restriction and think it works very well. Yes, i drool at a lot of areas I float by, but its worth it to give the fish a break. Our impacts from angling shouldn't include catching every last fish in the river.

    Regarding the original topic, I've always supported having a lottery system for areas that have too much pressure. This same concept is used on wilderness floats in Idaho/Montana, and has been an effective tool for preserving the resource. Hunting also adapts this concept. Many hunts that cannot support a lot of pressure are drawn on a lottery system. If it was a free for all, over harvest would be a major problem. Our population is getting large enough where we may soon have to start doing this for fishing. Most parts of Europe have gone this route in some form or another.
     
  16. Charles Sullivan

    Charles Sullivan dreaming through the come down

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    Guides and nymphing...hookers and blow.

    Go Sox,
    cds
     
  17. Luke77

    Luke77 I hope she likes whitefish

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    Wow, is it that time of the year already? These threads typically don't start till fall.
     
  18. Evan Burck

    Evan Burck Fudge Dragon

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    We had a similar long thread last fall... I think I started it... Anyways, I don't feel that guides are bad. But, I feel that TOO MANY guides is bad. What it does is limit opportunity for the average recreational angler to enjoy a resource.

    Let's take the Klickitat for example; On the first weekend of October last fall, we counted 28 boats in the canyon (that we saw). On that small water, that is absolutely ridiculous. Not all were guides, but well over half the boats I saw were. When I fish that river, I either walk+wade, or float, get out and fish. My catch rates are typically a fish or two a trip, while those fishing out of the boat are putting in days in to the double digits. No fish is safe in that river, since every single pocket they hold in gets absolutely hammered day in and day out. Just from my personal calculations (which certainly are not fit to be posted as any kind of study), I don't see how any fish is not getting caught at least once. With the run sizes in that river, many fish are easily being caught multiple times. And unfortunately, it's largely the guides that are putting in those numbers. Most recreational anglers I talk to out there are putting in 0 to a couple fish tops.

    I have many guides I consider friends, and don't wish many of the good, ethical, courteous ones that care about the resource to get the short end of the stick. But with a shrinking resource, we are alll going to have to make sacrifices, recreational guys included.
     
  19. dryflylarry

    dryflylarry "Chasing Riseforms"

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    Huh?
     
  20. Luke77

    Luke77 I hope she likes whitefish

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    What part of my statement escapes you?

    This thread comes up every year and always takes the same turn.
     

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