Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by dryflylarry, Feb 28, 2011.
Let’s see…. If I was a guide, I would try to put people and as many people onto some trout as much as I possibly could, especially to enhance my money making opportunity for future trips through “word of mouth” or whatever. The main goal is to put people on fish and catch fish, and, the more fish the better. Perhaps this is not true for all guides, but, I would say quite a few. I respect the guides comments that posted on here and everyone else. I think most care about the resource. I think there were a lot of good ideas and thoughts regarding the pressure on our resource. My question, for Steve J, and maybe other large outfitters relates to the “10 boat” a day idea. You say you don’t put 10 boats a day on any “one” section of a river. Does that mean you spread them out into 3 different sections of the river? How many boats do you put in per day when the fishing is good? I just would like to know. No offense intended whatsoever. So, if you put in say 3 boats in one section, another guide service does the same, and another, let’s say 5 shops put in the same amount (9 boats)---@(2 fisherman per boat as a minimum). So that amounts to 18 fisherman on 3 different sections of river X 5 other shops = 90 fisherman hitting the water that day. Now, if that is just a morning float, it could also happen in the afternoon as well. That’s a lot of fisherman pounding the river (nooks and crannies) in one day. One day only from a number of guide services. I don’t think the above is that unrealistic is it? I realize we are all guilty of adversely affecting our quality fishing. I suppose I was picking guides as only one aspect of the fishing pressure problem, but I still stick with my first post as one perspective of how guides can adversely impact our rivers. The fact of the matter is there are just too damn many people anymore, and, as I posted a few pages back, I know of a shop that signed up 178 Fly Fishing for Beginners Classes from January to July. You think the rivers are crowded, wait until you hit the beaches this summer chasing coho or pinks with all the new fly fisherman out there! Anyway, we all need to figure this mess out and there seems to be a lot of good ideas thrown out here.
Larry, a little bit unrealistic. That would be like memorial day or labor day weekend. And then the stars would have to align as well. Our blue ribbon fishery is not Montana, but is is none the less a good one, with over eleven hundred trout per mile in some stretches. On any given day, realistically in the height of the trout season, two or three boats out a day from all four currently rather active shops/guide services would be considered heavy in my opinion. And Easton to Roza is a LOT and LOT of water. So I think this "pounding" mentality you may have is a scotch exaggerated. I see some frustration is warranted, but put time in and pick a weekday, and rising trout to dries shouldn't be a problem. And remember, 85% of guide clientelle is made up of novice or beginning fly fisherman, or just folks who are there to build their own skills, so even if there were ninety fisherman out one day, how many would be good enough to do any amount of damage on those trout? There are too many variables to list, but in the end, I believe that there will always be a sustainabl, great, fun, and productive C&R fishery right over the hill even with current guide pressure.
You have obviously never fished the Madison during the Stonefly hatch where you will easily see upwards of 50 rigs at one takeout ( I once counted 63 trucks with trailers at one well known takeout), or the Bighorn during the PMD hatch when 75 boats fish 13 miles of water. Try the Missouri in May when all of the freestone western Montana streams are blown out. I try not to complain about the crowd when I'm part of it.
I am sure that is the case, with the particular stream being discussed, it is not.
CC I'm saying that the impact is a non-issue when the rivers I listed are unaffected by the numbers that are routine there and don't come close to anything in Washington. This issue is without merit.
Not disagreeing with you but there are a lot more trout per mile in Montana rivers than anything in Washington. The Yak is arguably the best trout water we have. Can you imagine 63 rigs from Green Bridge to Roza trying to catch a handful of trout numbered in the hundreds per river mile?
No I can't but the very fact that the river only holds 1100 fish per mile in theory negates the possibility. The point being made is the river can't stand the relatively small impact being put on it now, and I think the references negate that theory in proportion.
Since I have been a guide for 10 years in MT I have disagree with just about everything you said. First, if you have guided on the Madison can you really say that launching nearly 100 boats per-day at any one access site has been good for the overall experience of fishing or for the fish? I don't care if not one of those 100 boats actually catches a fish, that traffic is ridiculous.
I have had drift boat rowing guides low hole me, cut me off and get downright violent in front of clients. There are disrespectful asshole guides on just about every river in the west. There are plenty that pay no respect to the bank fishing public.
Your are full of shit to say that you've never had a client hurt a fish. If you're teaching beginners, running heavier tippet and hoping like hell that they'll finally get one to the boat sooner or later a fish is going to be harmed. I have had hopper hooksets that returned to the boat with nothing but the eye of a trout, nymph hooksets that yielded upper mandibles. I've had fish die from being hooked too deep or hooked in the gills. If you think you've never harmed a fish you are either a terrible guide who's clients catch no fish or you are kidding yourself.
Show me the fucking web page where you are charging "close to $800" a day for a trip. I have guided on some of the most expensive and exclusive trips in the US and I don't think that anyone is paying that much, not even for all inclusive multi-day trips with gearboaters and food included.
I've taught 1000s of "new" people to fly-fish too. Do I deserve a gold star or something?
I could go on, but I will leave it there and say that there is definitely a place for guides. They help people trade money for time and steepen the learning curve. They manage safety and hopefully teach good ethics.
Yeah, I'm sure you'd love to hold someone's hand for $800 a day. This kind of guide attitude made me rethink my life and work towards getting out of the biz entirely.
Going back to your first question about any rivers where guides are not permitted (which is a really good one BTW) the only one I can think of is the SF of the Boise. It is actually a nice river to float and can be pretty lonesome considering how close you are to Boise.
1100 trout per mile on the Yak is in some of the more productive sections in the lower canyon. In other places, the numbers are measured in the hundreds, not thousands. But your point was made.
I grew up in Lyle. I remember the Klickitat river and the fishing before the guides swarmed in, now look at it.
I cant agree more! As far as the OP goes, which seems to be the underbelly of this whole thing....I can't believe that banning bait at least from Feb 1st - May 30th hasn't happened yet, but that would seem to me to have a much bigger impact than limiting the amount of guides as a whole. (and would also weed out a few guides as well I'm sure) Beads and glo bugs are not as effective as roe, period! This whole swing -vs- nymph eliteism is stupid. If anyones biggest problem is worrying about how someone else uses a fly rod, PLEASE sign me up for your problems.
Is guiding a business? Yes. so, Reds operates a sucsessful business. Anyone with a job, or lives in a house, or eats, or clothes themselves, uses a natural resource of some sort. Your a General Contractor and win a bid and have to hire 10 subs to get the job done? Whats the differance betweem you and a "Reds fly shop"? That wood has to come from some place.
so are bait bans, selective rules, fly fishing only waters, catch and release, slot limits. fishing regulations by definition restrict people from how they might want to fish.
Ok, Ok. I got a little emotionally heated on this one, I usually dont. The simple fact is that I love my job and took this a little personal. So.....Whatever anyones opinion on this issue, post, whatever, Its clear we all care, its clear we all want to help, Its very clear that we all have opinions. I do believe that the majority of guides value our watersheds, as well as the majorty of regular (non-guide) fisherman. I do think that Washington should follow in Oregons footsteps and make it a little more work to get a guide license, not only for the fish, but anyone who hires a guides personal safety. If I pissed ya off...I meant to at the time, but Im better now, so I'm sorry. I will take internet posts for what they are from now on....internet posts.....and wont get all pissy again.....until the next one.
I recon your analogy is a bit off as one major difference is that said construction company has to pay for all resources used, and AFAIK the only place in the world that charges guides for actually catching fish is Scotland. If you know somewhere that will let me use as much concrete, steel, and lumber as I possibly can, and all I have to do is pay for my business license then sign me up.
I was really going to stay out of this but some of the comments made here are really stupid.
For one, people keep saying here that fishing guides should be required to be swiftwater rescue certified. Tell me how a three or four day course is going to make any difference when the Chiat goes down. That's just plain ignorant. I'd bet money that the significant majority of SWRT's couldn't rig a Z-drag two weeks after they completed the course.
I say this as a fully insured, FA, CPR full-time flyfishing outfitter and whitewater guide who saw over 1000 miles last year with much of it on Class IV waters including the MF Salmon at 8.6 ft.
Some guy in waders is not in ANY position to swiftwater rescue anybody.
If you had any significant time running whitewater or rivers for that matter, you would know it takes a significant number of days before it's , "always a good day to swim the river"...and, trust me, it's more than four days. And, I would certainly never, ever do it in waders.
More than anything in this thread, I see a bunch of selfish people who really have no understanding of the significant issues our anadromous fish and watersheds face. This thread has nothing to do with that. It is simply about "MY WATER" and it's crowded...Meoooooow!
bro are u seriosuly suggestion that swift water rescue is a worthless skill for person who rows whitewater with clients for a living?
I have been involved in the whitewater community MUCH longer then I have been fishing. I know people who have lost there life to the rivers. There is no good reason to not require a SWR training for guides. I know its not required currently, but I think it should be, especially on rivers with alot of wood or whitewater.
I have really been surprised with the lack of respect flyfishers have for rivers sometimes. Im not saying every river requires a PDF and a helemt 100 percent of the time, but I have seen a lot of rivers where a PDF at the least should be worn, and is not.
I also belive (these are just my opinions) that any guide who is guiding in a wilderness context (no continuous road access, more then 1 hour from a hospital/other medical center) should have at the MINIMUM a WFA, preferably a WFR.
There are alot of situations in washington rivers where a first aid cert is simply NOT going to save the victim. Oh, your client fell and somehow broke his femur? (not likely but entirely possible, esp guiding eldery clients). I sure hope you know how to improvise a traction splint... Also, I w0uld hope that guides are carrying COMPLETE hypothermia gear, esp guiding in the winter. That would be a hypowrap of some sort and a complete set of dry clothing.
All it takes is one fall on a slippery rock and your client is now in a serious threat of hypothermia. Washington Winters FTW.
Would love to here more guides perspective on the idea of first aid and SWR.
I have 20 years in medicine, 10 of it in clinical orthopedics. I carry appropriate gear on every trip. We run safety boat and Sat phone when indicated. We run a tight ship; although, it is definitely a gaming ship.
No I am serious and I hear it all the time. I have people ask me frequently to organize a SWR class.
My response is buy a whitewater seasons pass. By the end of the season, they'll be much better river folk than a 4 day class could ever make them. Rarely, do I see anyone follow through or have the dedication to do it though.
What I am saying is that 2 days in a classroom and 2 days on the water does not prepare anyone for when it hits the fan. I hear these fly guides, one especially out of Seattle, spouting off about swiftwater rescue cert and it's all about ego. And, that's the last thing it should ever be about.
If SWRT certification makes someone feel better, whatever. But, just because they learned to toss a throw bag in class doesn't mean they've practiced or repacked it in the last two years. And, if you think that some poor bastard in waders is going to hop in the water and do anyone any good, that's crazy.
Most of the guides I see out there know the waters they guide and their skill set. They do it well and appear to be fairly competent on the waters they guide.
SWR cert has absolutely zero impact whatsoever on an individual's skills as an oarsperson. It's the cart before the horse. Ohhh, you can't read and run but at least you've got SWRT.
But, I'll stick to my last thought and that's, this isn't about anything but "MY WATER" and "it's crowded"....