Reverse/Backhanded Single Spey Question

Discussion in 'Spey Clave' started by James Waggoner, Feb 10, 2011.

  1. fisshman26

    fisshman26 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2003
    Messages:
    362
    Likes Received:
    17
    Location:
    Trail, B.C., Canada.
    Nope I doubt that Kush will ever make the switch........if he ever did he would probably do better ;-)
    sounds like you need some help with your right if you can cast further cachanded.
     
  2. Philster

    Philster Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2003
    Messages:
    2,612
    Media:
    10
    Likes Received:
    81
    Location:
    .
    Maybe mike finds that folks tend to slow down during the dip. I actually accelerate during mine. It's the beginning of my speed up to throw a tight V. Mike is a pro instructor. If you're going to do 1 thing he tells you, it's smart to do them all.
     
  3. Philster

    Philster Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2003
    Messages:
    2,612
    Media:
    10
    Likes Received:
    81
    Location:
    .
    Kush is a big powerful dude. I remember when he was playing around with "the hammer" stroke. I haven't seen him cast in years so don't know how he's evolving, but he used to rely on power a lot.
     
  4. fisshman26

    fisshman26 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2003
    Messages:
    362
    Likes Received:
    17
    Location:
    Trail, B.C., Canada.
    Dips rob you during the cast straight linear rod path is the path it would help to accelorate but imagine if you accelerated with no dip?????
    Kush is a big dude and it does help him lots, I am 5` 6 or 7 depending which wading boots I have on.......rofl.
     
  5. Philster

    Philster Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2003
    Messages:
    2,612
    Media:
    10
    Likes Received:
    81
    Location:
    .
    Well, everybody has to find their happy home. I use the dip because it increases the window for my forward stroke. With a flat stroke, unless I time it right, I've got a lot of stick. I'm not dipping enough to drive the leader and fly into the water, but when gravity pulls things down on the water, I have much less stick, which means that even if I'm slow, or have forward drift (remember we're talking weakside up here, I'm not hitting everyone spot on) on my forward I'll have much less stick and more energy.

    Not saying this is the only way. Not even saying it's the best. Just my way. I am fishing. Not competing. That does make all the difference in the world.
     
  6. yuhina

    yuhina Tropical member

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2005
    Messages:
    2,320
    Media:
    607
    Likes Received:
    43
    Location:
    Boston-Idaho
    Home Page:
    I am with Jeff on this one. No dip! dip will easily form "bloody L", lost energy.

    All to respect and for constructive discussion's sake.........

    Bruce, I understand where are you coming from. long belly need long lift, long stroke, and rock your body will definitely help...but "dip" is not required for shooting head (in fact, they do more harm than help, IMO)...at least for Goran Andersson's "underhand technique" LINK
    or SOME of the scandinavian sub-style . (Henrik Mortensen is one of the exceptions)

    as far as I know, some of the good underhand casters use hand movement only, stand like a statue, compact stroke, stiff, quick and tippy rod was particular designed for this particular underhand stroke. Also, let me point out the fact that Scandi has the majority of line weight concentrate on the back end (triangle taper) for reason... land lightly, compact, strong and short stroke... the "leader" is actually "painting" on the surface... not crush...

    In fact, I know SOME of good skagit casters don't dip the rod or move their body either (they use rotation, and tight pivot hand movement)... just for your reference...

    Mark
     
  7. Philster

    Philster Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2003
    Messages:
    2,612
    Media:
    10
    Likes Received:
    81
    Location:
    .
    hey Mark. The only cast I dip on is the single.
     
  8. James Waggoner

    James Waggoner Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2007
    Messages:
    776
    Media:
    13
    Likes Received:
    39
    Location:
    wa
    Got a chance to get on the river yesterday and work on the Left hand up (River right) Single Spey. That's a nice cast, with little effort it flys. I can't wait until I'm a little more proficient with it. When I get a couple more outings under my belt, I'll post a small video of my progress. One thing I learned real quick is how hard it is to strip with the opposite hand...that was more difficult than the cast itself. I was changing hands while stripping, then I realized I better learn how to strip right handed as well.

    So, it looks like I'm back to no dip...I'll have get on the water and deprogram my newly programmed dip. Was a nice day on the water, after about 3hrs of just casting in the same run, I fished the tail out for about 30 mins and nailed a fish. Fish was probably just waiting in the tail out for me to stop flogging the water so he could get by.
     
  9. yuhina

    yuhina Tropical member

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2005
    Messages:
    2,320
    Media:
    607
    Likes Received:
    43
    Location:
    Boston-Idaho
    Home Page:
    ......
    I need to clarify "the dip" and "the curve" during the reverse single spey casting. There should be some grey zone in between and should not be confused what is "<span style="font-weight:bold;">good slightly curving</span>" verses "<span style="font-weight:bold;">bad dipping</span>"

    curving up the rod tip during the anchor set will enhance the leader/line landing, but also use to determine "how much" and "how sharp the angle" land.
    curving up make the "high D" loop, store more energy in the back cast... but also risk the crush landing of the anchor; the down side are the notorious "bloody L" and too much water stick on the surface thus reduce casting energy.

    Shooting head line are (way more) shorter than other lines (mid/long belly ), so a lightly "curve" or "dip" will cause a lot of angle change during the anchor set. That is the main reason, most of the scadi casters don't have this profound lift, sweep and arm extend as long belly casters does. In fact, underhand technique hate long movement... you can see how they shape their lower handle into much shorter length (see LOOP Andersson Signiture series, and Guideline LeCie series). They encourage caster to move the rod "close in". compact stroke again.

    Strong curve = dipping (rod tip) > caused the crush landing IF your line/leader anchor enter the landing zone too sharp (in angle).

    No curve sweep = horizontal move> D loop become "lower D" shape which is less energy D loop, but this is less problematic if you are using scandi shooting head. As I said before, most of the line weight is concentrated on the back end (triangle taper), right behind the rod tip, a strong compact stroke will still do the trick beautifully.(but not as relax as you have a slightly high D shape).

    You can exam this mechanic difference by switching scandi line to skagit line (and back and forth)... then you will feel the difference of weight distribution, and how it impacts on the energy.

    During Scandi underhand casting, I like to have a very slight curve to enhance the anchor landing, but also still try to make a leader "painting" on the surface.

    A good example of reversed single spey casting, noted the caster Rich's compact stroke, and minimum body rotation. Filmed by Ryan Peterson.
     
  10. fisshman26

    fisshman26 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2003
    Messages:
    362
    Likes Received:
    17
    Location:
    Trail, B.C., Canada.
    Mark, you kind of lose me sometimes in your posts.......info overload for me lol especially early in the morning ;-)
    I thought I had said that the dip was a bad thing and sounds like we are on the same page regarding this wether it be long belly or short belly, remember the line does what the rod tip does so dont dip if you can help it. Basic fundamentals Mark, they work short or long.
    As far as body movement, well the short lines let you get away with more than the long line will forgive. One thing to think of is that when you make the cast with more body than arms, there are less variables going on by locking your arms and turning with the body, but if you make the cast with only the arms there are so many angles and in out movements with the arms that can happen you are introducing many variables that can make for great casting or totally lose it all by having one hand higher or lower or close to body or far from body or angled this way or that....etc.
     
  11. yuhina

    yuhina Tropical member

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2005
    Messages:
    2,320
    Media:
    607
    Likes Received:
    43
    Location:
    Boston-Idaho
    Home Page:
    Oh... my bad! That's cool... I probably had too much coffee yesterday... thanks for the additional clarify.

    Bruce,

    I think your information is important here... and I agree what you said. At least to most of the spey casting... or related to many kind of sports. Tennis, Golf, Bowling swing etc.
    I know Mr. Henrik Mortensen has stress this in his instructions a lot.

    However, for the underhand casting or SOME scandi casting. The movement is so compact. there is always "tight to the body" movement. Hands are rarely go out and away from the body. So the deviation from the norm is not really a problem. (instead, it is more of advantageous to underhand technique). It is more like "use body as a wall" to pivot the rod by hands. I am not sure if you understand what I am saying here... well... but you can see how Goran Anderssen cast with no arm extend or no body rocking. One of the point he instruct is the "two fingers grip", this will allow him to rotate the bottom hand in huge angle range. You might think this will cause more "deviation" movement. But to myself, the muscle can remember it and it is a very versatile (and powerful) way to cast with a scadi head line.

    I will put the previous post back... hopefully this will clarify my point. But it is great to discuss those difference with you! Mark
     
  12. yuhina

    yuhina Tropical member

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2005
    Messages:
    2,320
    Media:
    607
    Likes Received:
    43
    Location:
    Boston-Idaho
    Home Page:
    continue talk about the limited body movement in underhand casting.

    Bruce,
    I would like to explain a little bit more about WHY there is a very little body movement in the underhand casting - about bio mechanic and field observations.

    The idea of limited body movement and "cast like a statue" is advantageous
    it came from two parts.

    First, (undeniable) the Scandi shooting head is designed for casting and fishing in a tight spot. Stiff, tippy, powerful rods and triangle tapered short heads were invented especially for the underhand casting. Those two things were mentioned from Mr. Goran Anderssen himself. He mentioned his father built faster rod ("springer" - in his words) for him, and allow him to experimentally cut the line shorter and shorter. He frequently use some thing less than 20' to fish the high bank. Usually "a quick flip" is enough to make a good cast. The power mainly come from bottom hand, which means you will need a strong top pivot point. His famous "two fingers grip" is made to form a pivot point. The arm doesn't extend, the body remain rigid to hold the pivot point. So it really is using the hard stop to generate a tremendous power to "flip" to boom the line out.

    Second, as you can picture the rigid statue like body position make a strong pivot. It is a advantageous to have this position, because drift is the enemy here. Any drift will lost the pivot energy. especially in those compact movement. You might think this is silly, but if you can picture "flip mud from a spoon". (the best analogy I heard from Tim Rajeff.). A strong stop will do the trick, better yet, if you can find a fence, hit the static fence with the spoon is even better than a hard stop from hand.
    This bio mechanic tell me a lot about why most of people feel good about their cackhanded cast (long and strong tight loop) compare to the other side. The cackhanded position lock up the body drift naturally. and really encourage the bottom hand movement, also block the bottom hand drift at the end of the cast. Of course, I am talking about underhand casting only.

    Mark
     
  13. k2flyfisher

    k2flyfisher its taco time. wheres the sauce?

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2003
    Messages:
    407
    Media:
    310
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    Portland, OR
    Home Page:
    some really good info here, i'm definitely a proponent of as little wasted movement as possible.

    sooo...with that said, i thought id share a video of some fisherman demonstrating all these principles...in a somewhat different manner...

    ...brings to mind some uses, say...if you ever feel like youre being watched, now youll know.

    or...if youre really confused as to what a switch cast is...now you know.

    or...if youre bored of fishing a run that youve all but sent the "rake" through, and still doesnt contain fish where it should...heeeres your sign.

     
  14. James Mello

    James Mello Inventor of the "closed eye conjecture"

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2003
    Messages:
    2,787
    Media:
    8
    Likes Received:
    81
    Location:
    Tacoma
    Totally one of those things suggested by the likes of Dana Sturm and others. Makes it easier to actually see your loop formation so you can make it that shape on a normal back cast.
     
  15. fisshman26

    fisshman26 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2003
    Messages:
    362
    Likes Received:
    17
    Location:
    Trail, B.C., Canada.
    Mark, hands in tight to the body is the most efficient way to cast with either long lines or short so we agree on that point I have met some incredible under hand casters in my time from all over the world and yes on the tight rivers that they fish there is little angle change but when they have to cast a wider andgle or go to longer shooting heads they do use some body to make the turn, Gorans example is an extreme one.
    There has to be a stop in order for the line to go out this is common knowledge.......but do you think that a stop can be made without stoping the rod????? Riddle me this lol.
     
  16. yuhina

    yuhina Tropical member

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2005
    Messages:
    2,320
    Media:
    607
    Likes Received:
    43
    Location:
    Boston-Idaho
    Home Page:
    Are there any secret cackhanded casting club out there?! lol I want to join...
    great video Brian!

    Mark
     
  17. yuhina

    yuhina Tropical member

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2005
    Messages:
    2,320
    Media:
    607
    Likes Received:
    43
    Location:
    Boston-Idaho
    Home Page:
    Bruce,

    Good Info. I agree Goran is a extreme case. He is a samurai, a knight "kill without seeing blood". Laser Sharp Loop! Amazing caster!

    I "kind of" know who you are refer to about the longer head and body movement... I will just take a guess the Syrstad brothers from Norway? Great casters!

    I have to make a disclaimer here again, there are many sub-styles of scandi casting. Goran Andersson's underhand technique is just one of them...

    I do have a answer in my mind now, but I will like to see other people's answer first... I would like to see what others think? or maybe you can explain what you think first?? :)

    Good discussion!

    Mark
     
  18. SpeySpaz

    SpeySpaz still an authority on nothing

    Joined:
    May 30, 2008
    Messages:
    1,836
    Media:
    8
    Likes Received:
    18
    Location:
    Roy, WA
    Even in strict underhanding, the upper hand remains a moving fulcrum, except at short range. The degree of movement depends on the caster. I can stand like a statue and cast, but find that some torso twist and forward-aft movement is very natural and energy efficient for me, especially with longer or heavier weight rods. The Andersson style, in vids, often shows some limited A>B upper hand movement, even if only a few inches. This helps a great deal when loading a faster rod, and to some extent the rod itself dictates what you can get away with.
     
  19. fisshman26

    fisshman26 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2003
    Messages:
    362
    Likes Received:
    17
    Location:
    Trail, B.C., Canada.
    Mark, I have met several casters from Norway and as for the Syrstads have only met Knut.
    C`mone lets hear what you think, and then explain to me why you would continue the rod movement.
     
  20. James Waggoner

    James Waggoner Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2007
    Messages:
    776
    Media:
    13
    Likes Received:
    39
    Location:
    wa
    I'm not saying anybody is wrong...but I've been trying to employ more body movement the last couple of outings and my casting has really gone to pot. It's been really frustating... I think I'm all screwed up now, got to many things going through my head...dip...no dip, some body, little body, stiff statue, lock the top hand no movement...a little movement? ...No worries, I'll figure it out and I'm sure I'll be a better caster for it.

    By the way, day one of Left hand up was pretty encouraging...day two a complete flop.
     

Share This Page