Reverse/Backhanded Single Spey Question

Discussion in 'Spey Clave' started by James Waggoner, Feb 10, 2011.

  1. yuhina

    yuhina Tropical member

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    JW,

    You are hitting the wall, which is wonderful to be in this stage IMO. because this mean you are improving (mechanic wise, and casting skill wise) . Seriously, I predict you are going to have a "Ah-Ha" moment very soon.

    I have a suggestion for you. Try moving your body first - Henrik Mortensen's style. It is a smooth and nice style too. but remember don't dip the rod..hope this help.
    Mark
     
  2. yuhina

    yuhina Tropical member

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    Indeed! The legendary SpeyPages logo cast.
     
  3. yuhina

    yuhina Tropical member

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    Bob,

    good to see what you think. you are more and less like Henrik style I guess...
    And I agree with your point that lifting line can and (should) move the upper hand (moving fulcrum/pivot). There is no need to restrict this first stage movement (however, personally I like to have minimum body/hand movement- I am a simplistic). What I was saying is mainly applied to the later movement, which is anchor set and forward stroke. No drift, short stroke, hard stop.

    Mark
     
  4. yuhina

    yuhina Tropical member

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    Hey Bruce,

    we are getting into some secret tricks here.. don't you think? :thumb:
    Sometime I feel my evil side said "should I give it out for free?!" lol
    Seriously, let me work on some bio mechanics and let's hear what others said first...:)

    Mark
     
  5. James Waggoner

    James Waggoner Active Member

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    Mark, thanks for the video and the words of encouragement...right away I see one area where I was going wrong yesterday, I was trying to hit a target directly accross from me. If this thread stays alive long enough I'll post my progress and hopefully an "Ah Ha!". Thanks everyone for your contributions.
     
  6. fisshman26

    fisshman26 Member

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    James, dont give up man you are well on your way, when casting left hand you have to think about it more than right because it comes natural on the right and frustration sets in easy on the left. Try locking your arms in a set position and just turning your upper trunk into the back cast.
    Which way do you stand? right foot forward seft hand up or left foot forward left hand up? There are advantages and disadvatages to both. Whichever way try pointing your lead foot where you want the cast to go.
    Mark what secrets? Its just casting and you yourself were calling me out to post video sooo............????? ;-)
     
  7. yuhina

    yuhina Tropical member

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    great advice! I might add...
    Bruce,
    a wiseman once said "a little spice will fuel good discussion..." : )

    I have something to work on my lab now... so can't really make a detail post...
    but I will just give some information here that power application in short line and long line could be very different (although I have less experience on the mid-long line, need you to chip in here). skagit cast (Ed Ward style) and scandi cast (Goran underhand style) are day and night difference regarding power apply and casting mechanics. The power stroke is difference, but most importantly, the invention of shooting head and running line (caused the over hang) has spawn a huge variation of casting stroke and power apply methods. Noted: Ed Ward's constant move and constant load (CM/CL) is the most amazing deviation form. (Though, he probably does not viewing this forum, I want to thank him in public that taking his time to discuss his casting technique and line configuration with me) I should be post some casting mechanic here very soon, regarding our previous discussion about how NOT stop and still make the cast. It will related to CM/CL and rotation stroke (angular momentum).

    Mark
     
  8. fisshman26

    fisshman26 Member

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    Mark keep it simple man as I am a simple man!
    The stopping thing is really simple, wether you make a hard jarring stop or a subtle millisecond stop you are still releasing the energy. The real question to you is why would you continue the stroke after the stop????? Again remember simple.
    If you are serious about the thci test you should start working with a 14-15ft rod and a line of at least 65ft belly as the bulk of the test will be with this length line. The Skagit and Scandi part of the test is quite small.
    As to wether or not Ed is the one you should be thanking is another story, not taking anything away from Ed as he is a friend and a great contributer to the sport but there are many who have contributed to the cm/cl style of casting.
    Mike Kinney as I have stated before is someone who can do it all and that to me is more interesting than just being a one dimensional caster. I know I am known as a long belly guy but am able to cast all styles, variety is the spice of life man!
    Mark thanks for the discussion without mud slinging and hope that I am making you think a little more than average...........lol!
     
  9. James Waggoner

    James Waggoner Active Member

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    Mark, Well...AH HA! Today on the river it all came together. Hitting the wall, as you said Mark, must have been my RE-format the hard drive phase, because today, I took both Your's and Bruce's advice and had a fine day casting. I am totally impressed at how effortless the underhand cast really is. Sure, I've got to practice somemore, but I've definitely gotten to a point, where in just a few weeks, I'll be light years beyond where I was. Left handed up is feeling more and more normal...but my cackhand is really a rocket now. Don't worry I won't lean on the cackhand; I'll continue to develop my left hand abilities.

    You guys Rock! Thanks for the free tutoring.

    James.
     
  10. yuhina

    yuhina Tropical member

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    I hear you! Sir! Definitely keep it simple!

    No doubt, I definitely need to work on my mid-long belly for sure!

    Bruce, I agree with you about the CM/CL is not a patented casting motion at all... and I have to admit, Mr. Mike K. has been one of my admirable caster... you know, you all big names/ instructors are all have my sincere respects! that means, free beers from me anytime and any place we meet! : )

    One of the reason I made a association between Ed and CM/CL is because he is the one make this concept popularized. Noted, I am not just give credit to him, but just simply point out he mentioned this in his video / and writings is available on the internet for public access. So, bear on me to be a quick typer!

    As long as back to our original question: "a stop can be made without stopping a rod??"
    the answer from me is a definitely YES! and this is something less known. No offense. Bruce, The short head castings had gone a long way from the traditional power stroke! Just give you a example, when Ed start to talk about his Skagit double spey few years ago. My first impression was "what the heck?! just because you use a skagit line to do the double spey doesn't give you a credit to name it skagit double spey!" Until 2009 he published his skagitmaster1 DVD, I suddenly realized how wrong I was! It is a totally different animal use different casting principle! I probably don't want to go through it here again, other people will jump on me as you see on the SP. HA... But this discovery is NO KIDDING. I actually think about to publish it in a sport physics journal. (of course this will be with my friend in the physics field). The whole suite of movements is specifically designed for reasons, as a good chain reaction, conserved all the energy and make it as minimum loss as possible... Through circular rotation and angular acceleration (the conservative law of angular momentum).
    Well, if I keep talking without video evidence, then I am become another kind of lame person... so I will stop here until I have time to make some videos. Hope this is ok for you.

    The question: "a stop can be made without stopping a rod??" is not a trivial millisecond thing, it is as big as 20-30% of energy. (ok a little bit more info here) If you looks at Ed Ward's CM/CL move, it is very different than other skagit casters. It is all boiled down to two major elements. First: tight pivot rotation (angular acceleration). Second, the utilized of overhang to deliver energy into tangent trajectory. The stop is made while the rod is still rotating...the produce "wadge" loop, a very powerful move during the final stroke that his rod tip can be ended as low as water surface while the line trajectory is high above the rod, and "the stop" was made BEFORE the rod stop. Maybe I should refine the question as "a stroke can be make without stopping a rod?" This is the utilize of angular acceleration through take advantage of the overhang. We all know that without overhang, the cast will have a wide open loop. Well... I have seen there are some new line design in the long lines has also gone through this wadge loop type weight distribution. But again, I am not familiar with them, and never test those myself.

    Let's start another new thread later. (not hijacking this one)

    Mark
     
  11. yuhina

    yuhina Tropical member

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    WooooHOOOOO!

    Congratulations!!! JW!
    That's really awesome!

    Mark
     
  12. Zane Wyll

    Zane Wyll Member

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    Mark you need to come to Washington and teach me Spey Casting......... Lets go Brother
     
  13. yuhina

    yuhina Tropical member

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    Zane,
    I want to visit the west coast sooo bad! Especially those amazing temperate rain forest!! Let me plan a trip soon and let's go fishing! Bro.
    Mark
     
  14. fisshman26

    fisshman26 Member

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    Awsome stuff James!
    Mark, the discussion on the double spey vs the skagit double spey is one that I dare not delve into same with the perry poke.
    There is a stop whether you think so or not it is in the pivot of the hands, the continuation is an old scottish thing and not somthing new as you ewould think and not associated with either long or short just good casting, the wedge happens but some other things happen too. Can you tell me what they are and why this causes the wedge and the other things?????
    This is fun discussing this with you Mark.
    One thing you might want to think about concerning the thci test is to keep your answers as simple as possible, you will fail if you delve to deep into discussion as to why this or that, keep it short and simple. By your post I can see why you and Ed get along so well ;-) (joke)
    Just finished night shift so off to bed for me!
     
  15. Ed Call

    Ed Call Mumbling Moderator Staff Member

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    This thread is quite amazing. What started as James asking a specific question about a technique that I have no understanding of has evolved into a thread of complex descriptions and differences. No one has lost their cool, each has a firm belief and the knowledge getting dropped is really cool. Thanks for asking James. Hope you got your reverse backhanded single spey tuned up and hope that everyone else keeps this kind of info coming.
     
  16. yuhina

    yuhina Tropical member

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    Same here! Bruce,
    Good discussion with you!
    Ok, I will go out and make some videos...as soon as the slush/ice break up (single digit weather this week).
    Mark
     
  17. fisshman26

    fisshman26 Member

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    No need for video as I know why this happens I am just trying to get you to think outside of the skagit box......casting is casting, long or short. Try to simply explain why the wedge appears and what other benifits to the cast happen.
     
  18. yuhina

    yuhina Tropical member

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    Ha... C'mon Bruce,

    You got to give me a chance to show off my "sexy" loop! :rofl:
    got to work now...talk later!
    Mark
     
  19. James Waggoner

    James Waggoner Active Member

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    I'm not even sure I understand the question, but to release energy without "stopping" on your forward stroke is only percieved that way by the eye, the line is saying something completely different..."I'm all amped up...Here's my stop I'm out of here!" That being the end of the bottom hand pull (The peak and release of power and energy stored in the rod and line) and a well timed release of shooting line. The rest is just follow through; upper hand lowers the rod. I do the follow through for a few reason: air mends, to get under the wind...or even use the wind and to help my mono shooting line gain a little traction in the guides to help turn over. I'm obviously no expert...was I close?

    It's fun to think about.
     
  20. Philster

    Philster Active Member

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    Imagine a bullet fired from a plane. The bullet is already traveling the same speed as the plane. So if the line and rod tip are traveling at the same speed and the rod tip slows what happens. It's ugly. Just pointing out that only a portion of the lines forward energy comes from the unloading of a rod. At short distances I can throw tight little V loops with a tuna rod and a 4 wt. line. Obviously, if only for not getting tired or sore, you want as much help from the rod as possible. Distance and control are just gravy :clown:

    That's one of the problems I have with all this. There really are very few true physical rules. Not to worship Ed, but he broke many rules in coming up with his style. I just borrowed his skagitmaster tape. It takes the whole tape for him to finally get around to explaining his 45 degree thrust as he sits on the hood of truck, which isn't a thrust, but hey the snap T isn't a T shape, so why start complaining now:beathead: Back loop 180 degrees from the target? Not necessarily. You can say a dip makes a bloody L. Well, a bad dip makes a bloody L. A shallow accelerated one reduces the size of my anchor.

    The Goran clip in this thread is another example. Like I keep saying in posts "We are men of action" The follow up line in the princess bride is "Lies do not become us" A long rod travel makes a big inefficient loop? Bullpuckey. I can do a Lefty style cast with a single handed rod with the rod almost horizontal behind me and take your eye out with the V I'll produce. You want a tight loop, Just make sure the rod trip travels flat through the stroke. You want a V? it's about the acceleration and the stop. You Load the rod, have flat tip travel, accelerate to a hard stop, and it all happens. HOW you do it doesn't really matter.

    Rules help, and certainly FFF needs to have a baseline instruction protocol. But from there, find your own way. Any who've guided or taught others to fish know this scenario. You get the person out on the water and drill into them to fish in close. Saying things like "You can't fish that water on the other side of the fast water" But you see a big rise and what do you do? Cast a lot of line, shake the rod side to side like you're going to win something if you do it hard enough, lay freakin' coils of slack on the fast water, get a 2 foot drift and Fish freakin' on! Your client looks at you like you've betrayed them and says "I thought you said I couldn't fish that water". From personal experience, especially if you're guiding, the politically correct answer at that point is not "No. I said YOU can't fish that water":p

    Casting is the same. It's not really about technique. Technique came about to properly apply principles. Once you do have solid technique, if you are inclined, you can find other ways to apply the principles.
     

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