Discussion in 'Spey Clave' started by James Waggoner, Feb 10, 2011.
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And long rod travel being inefficient?
Wow, well said Phil.
I hope you dont think it was I who said that dipping produces a bloody L as it does not it is simply not the most efficient but that does not mean that it wont work for you or others. Everyone is built different and has different hand speeds etc and so you have to figure out what works best for YOU.
Another thought about loops, why is it that people think that a small tiny loop is going to go the furthest?
Have fun with your casting people and keep an open mind.
Oh yeah and Phil do you really think that Ed invented the thrust or he just came to that conclusion on his own while experimenting outside the box?
I'm not an Ed worshiper. I do think he's a great ambassador though. My point about mentioning Ed to point out the 180 degree thing. And also back to the "we are men of action" thing: He doesn't thrust. It's more like a train taking a sidespur.
Just like in the 70s and 80s when every instructor said don't break your wrist, and you'd watch them cast and they're breaking their wrists all over the place. I think Joan Wulff was the first "Name" caster who really nailed the wrist-and-thumb pop description.
Sounds like you have a lot of experience in the two handed game? How long? Do you think there is a difference between distance with top hand vs. bottom hand casting? thanks.
I don't claim to be an expert. Got my first in nineties. I do understand casting and how rods work. I first learned classic stuff from Maxwell, and studied everything I could get my hands on from Falkus when they were the only two viable resources. My natural stroke is a long top hand stroke. The vast majority of my fishing up until I moved up here in 2000 was saltwater, or at least brakish on the Delta, and the saltwater casting stroke is in my blood. Much like a baseball player trying to perfect a golf swing, I think I will always struggle to nail the scandi stroke. Because when I hit hard patches and the short stroke doesn't work, I know that I can go from the "ready position", push both hands forward together accelerating and at almost full extension pop the bottom hand back, and pardon my french, cast the shit out of that mofo!:thumb:
I think everyone should try everything. But it really is about the fundamental "principles" as lefty preaches. I wish I could just do short pops effortlessly. It's just not me. And if it's not you, there's no reason you should have to either. If you looked at biomechanical modeling of my single hand and double hand, it would be crazy similar with the high hand, as I prove everytime I overhead cast on the sound with my switch. But I'm not trying to be an instructor, or a competitve caster. I just want to fish, and be able to make every cast I need to make.
And with the standard disclaimer that distance isn't everything, yes I do believe that longer rod travel has the potential to achieve greater distance. The longer stroke has the potential to allow the caster a longer, and therefore more gradual and smoother acceleration and can smooth out shock ripples in the line. But most of us, myself included, aren't capable of taking advantage of that opportunity without near daily practice. Just do the math. the final delivery is the same. Popping the bottom hand. Can you do more with 1.8 feet of tophand travel, or two times or more than that? Now for full day fishing, I'm going to be much less efficient in terms of my body. That's why I'd love to master the scandi. It's just so foreign to me.
Is there a difference between long line travel and drift? Beach fishing or distance casting to get way out there is going to require some drift...you can use drift in the double hand rod as well...Mortensen talks about it, Kinney does as well...It takes a little practice but along with a flat rod path and all the other variables that go into casting can make the difference between what some guys think are long distances and then really long distances...
Saying that anything will work and go your own way is fine up to a point...getting beyond that point still requires the basic structures to be met....You brought up Ed and he has come up with phenomenal casts in difficult situations...some of which are his own and some like all of us he borrowed and made fit his system...
Two things stand out from listening to him...One, he said he doesn't cast more then ten strips as he felt that defeated the purpose of what he was doing....a reason why he likes shorter rods etc.
The second being when he was overseas and giving talks, the lads over there wanted to see him bomb out 150' plus casts...The euro's for some reason like to be impressed by big distance if your going to talk...I believe he said he had a hard time getting through to them that he didn't cast like that...
So what I'm saying here is that for most of us...casting out to the 120' mark with a skagit etc. is a pretty decent cast....most guys with time and skill level can get there....to get to the 130' and beyond mark requires more skill and being more stringent on making sure you are nailing everything correctly...there is not the margin for error that you seem to say is Ok in casting...
You can buy a big stick and a comp head and each foot you gain will add distance etc. but like any rod that will only get you so far....Bruce and maybe a handful of guys can reach out to distances that while some talk the talk..not many can walk the walk with....
Timdog on here is another guy that I've seen on the Thompson and other local rivers who you can hand any rod to and will throw it to the backing knot...That's a 150' cast....They love big water cause guys like me will put the fish out to where only those handful of guys can reach....
As far a loop size....again, Tim throws darts, that's his style...I've seen more classic distance casting and they are a much more open loop that seems to fall out to the 160-170 mark....
For all the talk and arguing....There is really only two guys on here who I know can reach the big distances..that's Bruce and Tim....Kinney I should add can do just about anything in casting as well..but would probably find this distance b.s. boring as there are very few places it has any value...but I wouldn't put anything past those old cagey eyes....
I never said anything will work. I said anything will work as long as they achieve the necessary principles. And again refer back to my guiding/teaching example of fishing across swift currents. If you want to believe that Ed never fishes more than 10 strips fine. It's a great object lesson to teach students to fish well and accurately within a controlled distance. However, if a fishy looking lie is 90 feet out, are you telling me he's not going for it?
Yes there is. Drift allows the line to "unroll" in single hand (in quotes because you don't want the line to go dead), or your Loop to fully form in double hand while still maintaining dynamic contact (maybe not the best word choice, but hopefully you get what I'm saying). rod travel, at least as I'm using it is the distance the tip travels from dead stop to dead stop.
The guys who cast far sometimes hook fish near the beach but the guys who cast short NEVER catch the fish that are way out there! HA HA
I guess I should have been more specific...when the bottom hand ends it's pull in an underhand stroke the top hand is set...so there is a hard stop...then the top hand may follow through. So to the untrained eye it may appear a "Stop" really never occurs until the rods layed down. So the question, I thought I was answering, a quote from one of Marks comments, "a stop can be made without stoping the rod?" My answer was basically: "No, though it may look like it."
But I'm open to know Marks opinion...and I'd like to see a video of it too, that would be cool!
Enter the Dragon!
I've gathered from the videos that the upstream foot should be forward, so you don't over rotate, and to point the lead foot at your intended target. So I know this isn't a hard and fast rule...I do see an advantage to changing it up when you want to direct your cast more accross or up stream...am I missing other advantages?
By the way thanks, when it came to casting I used to think "hard and fast" was the style for me...I now like the Bruce Lee "JKD - Economy of Motion" approach of Scandinavian Underhand style. This is the "One Inch Punch" of the spey world.
Nice thought and clear lay out! It's great to see you start to analyze your own casting mechanics! : )
You are absolutely right about the Scandi underhand casting and right about "the stop" comment! In underhand casting "stop/stroke" occur when the rod stop. so the answer for the underhand casting is a "NO" (you are right about it). "hit the wall" is the motion you feel the energy been released. "the flip"!
In addition, "Follow through" or "drift out" is just a additional finish touch, has nothing to do with the stop.
If you go back to re-read my previous posts, you can see I was refer to another less known casting principle - rotation / angular acceleration. This is when "stop" did not come along with the rod motion simultaneously. It is about angular acceleration. It is different than the linear acceleration.
People are usually more familiar with the linear acceleration, and this is understandable, not only because we learn most of the single hand casting through linear acceleration principle, but also our daily life is full of linear movements - car driving, running, skiing, or shooting bow etc...
On the other side, rotation is somehow less known and hard to picture if you don't pay extra attentions in your daily life... it is even harder for me to explain it on the verbal discussion... So I decided not to tackle this daunting task on the verbal approach, rather, I would love to make some videos and explain it in the real casting scenarios. I think that would be more satisfying for me and for the audiences. Eh... it has been a busy week for me... @@
I was typing when you posted your two posts so didn't see them...I wanted to see if you were talking about drift versus long line....your casting style sounds a lot like the classic casters...my bud knew mike and his wife quite well..some may say his wife was the better caster and held the world record for single hand rods for a bit...Heard he was a "body" guy similar to more modern scandi casters...guy like Niska who owns Whistler fly fishing I believe style was based on this...correct me bruce or ralf if i'm wrong on this???
Just know it's a tough style for me to use...guess I would be called modern scottish style..from a forum I can't find the link for right now...but was very informative on how to use a horizontal lift on the single spey that would lay your fly out in front of you and make setting up your fly a lot more effective then the lift and dip method
Yep I would say that Niska has a similiar body rock style in both single hand and double hand casting>
I love the "modern Scottish" aesthetic. The "Hammer" stroke I referred to when talking about Tyler Kushnir ( I think it was in this thread) is a high hand position, short stroke the Scots came up with. Playing around with that one may be why I can't do the scandi!
I don't know about her casting records, but Denise Maxwell was actually the Guide in the family. Amazing lady.
In addition to the THCI comments…
(warning, if you are not into THCI instruction test, DON'T read! Thanks)
Two Handed Casting Instructor to me will not be a “badge”, nor does it will ever be served as a glory illusion. It is just a part of angling life (hobby) in me. A simply joy to share idea, casting mechanics with others. The satisfaction of seeing other people improve their casting, shorten their learning curve is as good as catching a fish myself. I have no desire to pursue the certification per se. Instead, receiving a whole package of educational training is what I am really after.
Follow the same logic and philosophy, sharing information and help people getting into different casting styles on the internet is the true spirit of THCI. I truly believe that everyone here that willing to share their experience and helping others in this forum ARE all THCI in my book.
For clarify, One of the reasons, I always brought up some big names like Mr. Ed Ward and Mr. Mike Kinney is not because they are “famous” per se. To me, it is mainly due to the spirits that they are willing to provide those free tutoring on the internet. I simply learned a ton of casting skills from their videos and internet writings. The motivation to post casting mechanics on the internet is simply come from inspirations from them and other internet activists. Not a worship or some sort of “bromance”!
As a educator myself (I taught biology lab in a university while I was a graduate student ), there are always two different kind of challenges that instructor are facing everyday. First, the ability to gather and digest the correct information, second, the ability to transform and transfer the knowledge to the students. It doesn’t matter how good of a researcher you are, if you fail to transfer those information to the students. You are still a failing educator. The same failing will come, if you did not update the knowledge according the current research field. The same principle can also apply to the casting instructors. It doesn’t matter how good you are as a caster, if you can’t transform the techniques into common sense and deliver it to the public as a layman’s words, it is still a failing instruction. As well as, if a instructor did not update the knowledge of recent developed techniques to suit the demand from the current angling environments.
Internet forums are the forefront/ and experimental grounds of the angling industry. Some of the “backyard” techniques we talk about here will be in the main stream in the near future (at least some of them will and already does). Along the same logic, Federation of Fly Fishers (FFF) will be following those new developed casting techniques as well and provide instruction support for the market.
As I mentioned before, short shooting head casting has gone a long way from the traditional casting techniques, and gained a tremendous popularity and development in the recent year (streamside wise, and industry wise). Just like Goran Andersson has predicted many years ago! In my personal opinion, the FFF will be adapting to this trend to increase the instruction content of the short head casting to fulfill the need of the future angling environment. Especially to suit the need of different sub-styles in shooting head casting.
The old simple casting principle still will be the foundation, however, as more diverged development of different techniques (tackle wise and casting wise). There is less tolerance for the ignorance of the instruction part. I think Mike K. has a great sum up post of this kind of “adaptive instruction” that he mentioned in his earlier post that he is not trying to teach the client “what is the right way” to cast, instead, he is working with the client’s way to make his own cast happen. As you can picture this will be a daunting task for the future instructors regarding many new developed casting styles and casting principles.
I got to find this site...explains a lot of casting methods and styles...kind of cool as they define different styles and is funny to see what your's is compared to what you think it may have been...I thought I'd become more underhand style but am much more modern scottish which is underhand, with some body using skagits/scandi/shorter headed dry lines....kind of a combo of a few methods...sounds like the mutt version of speycasting...I'll see If I can find it and post it..
Ok, if your really into casting etc. check this out, look for the tab bar and pull down and click what you want..I am not at this level..but it works and is pretty bad ass..
Hunh... Is there casting there? I "accidentally" hit the salmon fly button and have been "occupied" for a bit time. :thumb:
check out the fly casting bar, go down to incline exercise...I tried that with my dry lines and it was quite an improvement over my lift and dip method...
Phil the hammer and the Incline cast are one in the same although Kush`s version that you might have seen is a little off the mark ;-)
Mark, I think that you have some great ideas on the fff but myself and others view it as nothing but an old boys club, dont get me wrong there are several in it who do good but there are many people in it who should never have passed the test that have and several who took the test and should have passed and did not so you might want to keep that in mind, a thci really meens little to those in the know as it were.
I have said it once and I will say it again the principles of the cast are the same long or short head, big rod little rod........