Reverse/Backhanded Single Spey Question

Discussion in 'Spey Clave' started by James Waggoner, Feb 10, 2011.

  1. yup. Dats da one! Except what Kush was doing, and this was 6 or 7 years ago, and he had just picked it up, was a much higher hold, and probably a little farther behind his ear as well. Like a killer in slasher movie:rofl:

    It's almost my stroke except my top arm extends farther forward.
  2. Hi there again, I am not reaching the huge distances as compared to the awsome long lineing styles of Bruce, Brian, Greg, or any of the Scottish dudes, all these guys are head and shoulders above me. This long line competiton casting is new to me and I am hoping to have fun and learn from these great casters. I appreciate the kind comments regarding my casting but talk of my casting on the internet web forums makes me a little uncomfortable, mostly because I dont own a computer and usually dont participate on internet forums.
  3. Dont sweat it Tim, you will do just fine. The way I look at it the only one I am competing against is myself.
  4. (not quite sure what (Philster) you mean? could you elaborate? thanks)

    Golfman65 and Philster

    I feel I need to make a definition and explain the term "drift" here. Because I am the first person in this thread to use the term "drift". I said "drift is bad in underhand cast because it will lost pivot energy"

    After reading you two's posts, I understand we are talking about different "drift". Just to be clear here, let me define my "drift" first:

    My drift is a pivot shifting movement during underhand stroke (bad thing). For my case, tophand is my pivot, stationed close to body (did not move) served as solid pivot, only the bottom hand stroke to pivot the rod and "flip" line out. IF I move my top hand during this final stroke which is shifting the solid pivot point (drifting). Then the pivot energy will be eaten away from this pivot shifting. How to picture this? If you throw a tennis ball to a concrete wall, compare to throw a tennis ball to a spongy wall. which one will bounce back with higher speed? Yes, the concrete wall! because the solid wall give you full energy support. And the spongy wall EAT your energy away. (let me know if this example is not clear).

    On the other hand, your drift regard to Henrik's body movement and Mike's longer movement. It is not a drift in my definition. Your drift is a "stroke".

    Longer stroke versus short stroke during the power application (all good things). So what Henrik said in the movie I provide above is that he mention you can use body shifting to generate power stroke. "just like boxer's left hook". This your "drift" = stroke is also in the Mr. lefty's video that Philster has provided. The longer stroke and then stop to cast a line. So this "drift" is a different thing to my "pivot drift".

    Philster, In the second video about the single hand competition caster. The stroke is fairly long. The reason being the long stoke accelerate the power and make a long cast. We all know the final high line speed determine the maximum distance.

    There are two ways to control line speed. 1) The long stroke. 2) The high speed burst stop.

    You can have a long stroke with low speed stop = smooth caster for fishing

    You can have a short stroke + high speed burst stop = scandi caster for fishing

    But you want have a maximum distance for competition. YOU NEED BOTH.
    Long stroke acceleration + high speed burst stop = this will give you the MAX DISTANCE.

    0:40 Sec, see Steve have a long stroke (body movement) and a very amazing hard burst stop!

    Let me know if you need me to explain more...
  5. Mark drift is easily done in your description of scandi casting without loosing the pivot point if you raise your top hand straight up..........simple, again basic casting principle and applies long or short line.
    The extended distance stroke has more to do with a longer line outside the rod tip than you would think.
  6. Hey Bruce,

    It seems we have a lot of difference in viewing things... which is really make me feel excited! ;-) Seriously...
    how about let us tackle one thing at a time?! single hand, long stroke discussion first? as you said here.

    Could you elaborate your view of extended stroke in single hand casting? what is the function? what is the consequence?
    Let start from the basic casting 101! what do you think? what play? (not teasing, I will write mine after you)

  7. longer the line longer the stroke,
    who cares about that though as I claim the smackdown on your drift statement lol
  8. I totally agree! but before we go into this discussion, we need to answer the first question though, which is long stroke vs. short stroke.

    well... how about "long stroke" by itself. Regardless of the length of a line, single hand cast.
    C'mon, Bruce. It is a simple question about the function and consequence of long stroke vs. short stroke (everything being equal)

  9. how about this mark sticking to double hand stuff, what other drift can you do in the scandi cast other than the top hand going up??????
    I am by the way answering off the top of my head when I respond and not researching answers
    And I dont understand your question about long stroke vs short stroke please simplify for me
  10. great! Bruce,

    (because I was answering Philster's Lefty's video analogy, and you chip in, so I thought you are interested in single hand discussion too, that is the reason I refine the question in the single hand range for you)

    Since we have two questions here. I will do the "drift" later, because now we have steve's video ... and this stroke question should be a easiest! so let's get it off the way quick, then move to the "drift" question which will require more explanation.

    Long vs. short stroke? function and consequence. single hand rod. go!
  11. ok.Bruce, I reread your last response. so you said your "first" response is not to my single hand question?
    Is this correct?
  12. In which style of single hand casting are yoou refering, tight and controlled like Steves or open and long like Brian Okeefe? I have seen both cast in person so again what is your point and how does it apply to double hand casting?
    Steve is short and controlled strokes to control the line and then on the final power stroke he extends the stroke delaying turnover to the maximum, he has a rythem of 2-3 controlled and then the power final stroke, or Brian who extends the rod both on the forward and and back casts and extends the line in the final back cast and traps the energy of the rear shoot and transfers it into the forward cast so ummmmm what was your question again.
    Lets stick to the double hand stuff I have forgoten more about single hand stuff than I can remember ha ha.
    so what other drift can be done without loosing your pivot point and remember you have to concede to me that the drift up is just that a drift:) and in doing so would have to admit you were wrong lol
  13. We weren't talking about you dude...

    the other tim...

    with hair...


  14. OK, the first question focus on Steve's video. Why he need to extend his body, rocking back and forth to extend the stroke. He can just stand still and do a shorter stroke right?

    The answer is extend acceleration along the path to obtain the final high velocity BEFORE the power snap. High velocity = high momentum P=mv. If you have a big momentum to enter the second stage (power snap). You will have a bigger line speed at the end.

    In addition, the power snap is another additional acceleration which is created by the combination of hard stop and the spring energy of the rod. The harder the stop, the minimum "the drift" out (loss energy). Regard to the flipping mud from spoon analogy from Tim Rajeff. The harder the stop, the smaller the energy loss. SO steve can transfer all the momentum + spring energy into the final line speed. The secret of the distance caster in single hand is not only rely on the power stroke, BUT, most importantly, the HARD STOP. Steve has a AMAZING STOP POWER that can make him a super efficient casting machine! This is the secret of single hand casting! And this is the same principle of Scandi casting > the hard stop!

  15. ok, Bruce, it has been a long day for me... bed time! Let's start the pivot drift discussion tomorrow!
    Good discussion!
  16. Well Mark I can generate just as much power without stopping if not more in a scandi cast! And that you will have to figure out on your own as it is a trade secret that you wont be able to research........ now back to your concession.........
  17. Bruce, your just putting Mark on to ruining his sleep right? He'll be tossing and turning all night!

  18. ok! I think we are on the same page on the single hand casting. so I will work my way into the scandi cast... the same principle here (as Bruce said) - linear acceleration.

    Before I get into the Scandi cast. I will like to finish the single hand cast - the Steve Rajeff style. see video above.

    In my previous post, I mentioned there is two elements (stages) contribute to final line speed. 1) long stroke acceleration. 2) hard stop (power snap). The longer stroke will gradually accelerate the line speed into it's maximum BEFORE hard stop. so right before the "hard stop", the line trailing behind the rod tip has the same speed as the rod tip (both are V.). without a hard stop, you can literally throw the line and rod out at the same speed (v). Just like this Javelin thrower. VIDEO. this is called linear acceleration (the principle we all familiar with), just keep in mind this linear acceleration. (eventually I will introduce the NON-linear acceleration (principle 2) in other casting style (Mr. Ed Ward's circular motion))

    OK, so what is the key observation about this Javelin thrower? compare to Steve's casting video.

    they both are throwing something out. same priniciple... use linear acceleration. no problem.

    Steve still has his rod one hand, only throw the line out.

    The Javelin guy doesn't have anything on hand, he throw "the rod" away! why? because the Javelin guy don't stop. He just apply the power all the way and release the energy from "let go". imagine if he has "a fly line" tie to his Javelin, he will throw the line and the javelin all together - away at the same speed.

    IF, Steve did not do the power snap, the result will be the same. He will throw his rod and the fly line away at the same speed V.

    I hope this analogy will give you a feel how important is the "hard stop". Because of the hard stop (power snap), so steve can separate the line and the rod. Otherwise, both will travel at the same speed V. out of his hand.

    Another analogy (I promise this one will related to Scandi cast)

    You are driving a car with a apple on top of your car. car has a speed 60 mph.

    1) You make a sudden stop because a dog run across the street. what happen, the apple fly out and roll over your windshield.

    2) same scenario, c a kid run across the street! You make a harder stop from the speed 60 mph. what happen to the apple?
    It will fly out further.

    3) same scenario, driving a car 60 mph, a big tree fall across the street just in front of your car, you hit the tree and stop immediately. what happen to the apple?
    The apple will fly out like a bullet!

    (to be continue)
  19. Wow Mark you are sure quick to edit past posts to suit your needs. You stated how there can be no drift in the scandi cast as you do it as the top hand-pivot-cannot be moved and now avoid the truth of the top hand being able to drift up or could not figure out that you can drift the bottom hand out without breaking the top hand pivot........
    There is a saying somewhere about those that dont know or study history are constantly reinventing!
    Have fun setting the speycasting world on fire! Whats next the scandi double spey????????
  20. Bruce,

    as a real person behind the computer here, I am assure you I never change my statement that the top hand as pivot DON'T Move or Drift out (in my previous definition).

    Is this clear to you?!

    I never change my statement (top hand (pivot) don't move). I just want to finish the single hand casting first.

    Also I have made a post to Golfman65 and Philster about the drift problem we have (because golfman65's drift is actually a stroke) see below for the original post. #104 in this thread.


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