Discussion in 'Spey Clave' started by James Waggoner, Feb 10, 2011.
I am bored! Like I said have fun reinvinting speycasting! Later
Mark, I think what your saying, in a nut shell: When the underhand is in motion (on it's pull stroke) the top hand relationship remains relative to the bottom hand...Weather done in a moving vehichle or attached to a forward moving torso, forward motion doen't have to stop to perform this priciple.
The body movement, like your car anology provides energy, therefore is all part of the casting stoke....so how can you say the top hand doesn't move? Now wouldn't I be correct, to say instead of moving the body (though perhaps less effecient) one could push both hands (in a linear fasion keeping hand relationship constant) away from the body, then perform the underhad pull. Same priciple? Perhaps do all three...rock forward push the hands out, and pull with the bottom hand...keeping it all linear and hand potions relative (fulcrum constant). I would think this would have a tremendous amount of power.
So I see Bruce's point, by arbitrarily, defining drift to meet your needs, you've appeared to back pedel on your "Stone statue, fixed top hand fulcrum" absolute. It's almost like your saying the same thing, but something beyond symantics is going on.
Keep it coming guys, this line of thinking has me thinking about casting in ways I've never dreamed.
Before we totally loose your weath of knowledge to boredom, could you breifly go on and explain the advantages of foot postion, the why and when we would want to change up?
Of course this would be while Scandi casting, fishing a guidline scandi type head around 39'.
Thanks in advance, James.
That's right! JW
I totally agree what you said here... whether it is in moving object, or static object. You ALL can do this pivot movement. So what you describe here is Henrik's motion. Not Goran's motion because Goran do not move body like Henrik.
Also let's look at what Goran is doing.
He did not move body, and only use hands to do a compact stroke. For analogy, Goran's pivot move is like Steve's power snap. There is no body acceleration in Goran's cast. Only power snap.
That is the reason Goran's underhand technique is focused on top hand as pivot (don't move) and use the bottom hand as the leverage to do a power snap.
If this is clear for you, JW.
I can go on to explain WHERE is the pivot in Goran's underhand casting, and WHY the top hand is the best place to be the pivot.
so if we agree pivot rod is the motion of relative movement between top hand and bottom hand. like JW said here.
WHY you have to fix the top hand and move bottom hand in Goran's underhand technique?
The reason for that is because you will obtain a biggest leverage by fix the top hand (with your upper body).
In addition, you CAN move both hands and still have a pivot motion in your rod. But this is less ideal casting for Goran's underhand technique. Imagine push the top hand out, and pull the bottom hand in motion. Where is your pivot? It is in the middle of the handle between top hand and lower hand. (the rotation center = pivot). This is less ideal place to become a pivot.(although you CAN do it here).
The reason is the leverage of this double move is shrinking to only half, compare to top hand fixed as pivot style.
Boring.... the top hand should be the pivot in all spey casts pretty simple. You are correct James both hands make the forward cast in the most efficient scenario, so like you said as long as the plane stays and you move both hands forward and then make your cast all is good.....did any one ever mention straight linear rod paths?????? lol
Same foot forward as top hand prevents you from over rotation and more forward extension on your cast,opposite foot forward opens you up to more extension on the back cast, but can cause the over rotation and loss of the 180degree principle.
Have fun James and remember long or short its all the same principles good casting is good casting and whats new today was once new a long time ago.
Mark I think I got the difference...in mid evil war terms - Goran would be the "Trebuchet" and Henrik the "New and improved: Floating Trebuchet".
Scandi is all about the mechanical leverage.
this is a great question! Why Goran doesn't move his body?
and also he did not move the top hand either! see video link.http://www.g-feuerstein.com/the-underhand-cast.html
So in his underhand cast. He really just put himself into the power snap stage. and still make a great cast!
Two reasons for this Goran Underhand cast: (flip cast)
1) strong tippet rod, a short move and generate a lot of power (like some powerful bows, you don't draw a long distance and they give you a lot of power)
2) very short shooting head, all the weight is concentrated. So it will "flip out" with high speed.
Keep in mind, this underhand technique is specially designed for his fishing situation. very tight spot, he need to flip out the line. so his movement is reduced to only a power snap.
Oh, I definitely see the value in Goran's casting technique. He likes the KISS approach to spey casting, so simple a caveman could do it.
We can review Henrik's style again. He move his body (stroke), and also do a final pull of bottom hand (power snap). This is different than Goran's style (power snap only).
So yes, Henrik's cast is more elongated and relax, because he has both stages to generate power. 1) body movement (stroke), and 2) underhand pull (power snap). In the end, Henrik can use half body energy and half power snap. He looks like more "hang with rhythm".
The same principle in the Steve's long cast. video. Two elements still 1) body movement (stroke) and 2) power snap.
really, Henrik and Steve's casts are side by side use the same principle. stroke and power snap.
Personally, I prefer use Goran's style. because I enjoy the power snap a lot and I think it is cooler not rock my body.... HA... but if I have too many beers, I will use Henrik's style. It is "hang with rhythm !" :thumb:
Let me know if there are anything unclear.
All casting is about mechanical leverage. And as in your medieval war analogy, tactics and techniques evolve to keep pace with technological developments.
As to foot stance, yes foot stance determines what you can and can't do with the rest of your body. I like the way Bruce described it, because he didn't make one good and the other bad. There is no good or bad. Just different characteristics.
I will add that foot stance, other than competitive casting, and just getting the fundamentals down should be something you practice. left front. right front. Left front weight on back, weight on front, one footed, etc... That's one of the things I always laugh at in videos "First get in your stance..." Go fish on the Thompson, or the Umpqua, or the Pitt, or "insert name of your favorite Ima-Drown-You river", and "get in your stance" :rofl:
Good observation. move or not move is a relative term. You sit on a airplane flying. Do you move? Yes, you are flying. But do you move related to your neighbor? no, you sit still. you did not move. So this is a very important concept. You need to put a reference to see "move" or "not move"
when i said "pivot on the top hand,don't move" it is focused on Goran's underhand tech. so the top hand pivot did not move is for sure. whether it is related to his body, or related to the ground. all can see as still.
however, how about in Henrik body stroke? does his pivot move? NO, related to his body, he did not move. and Yes, he moved related to the ground, because his body is shifting. So how do we know if his pivot move or not move?
Simple, what is the function of pivot? to rotate the rod and generate power right? if this is the role of the pivot, then we should focus on it related reference. underhand and body. which mean, pivot doesn't move related to body and underhand, even his body is shifting. (again, reference point is on the body and underhand).
Yes, you can do that, you have a parallel long stroke, then you can pull both hands back to do a power snap. however, this will run into a risk to drift the pivot point, thus loose the spring energy in the rod. the reason for fixing pivot to your body is for a solid wall. remember I said: a solid wall will give you less energy loss...a solid pivot will give you less energy loss. (look back the analogy of hitting tennis ball to concrete, compare to spongy wall). I encourage to test it... and see if this is a good way to cast. Sometime cast different weired style will help you understand the mechanics. I did this cross exam a lot too.
I read the first page of this thread and the last. I've not the time to wade through 130+ replies. I'm sure there is much good advice.
I have the 12'6" LPXe in 8/9 and have used a DDC Int head on it for many years. My 9/10 DDC is cut to 34' and 435 gr. Your 480 gr would be on the heavy side. I'm right handed and use the cackhanded circle/snap T type casts very well with this rod on that side of the river.
I'm guessing there's a lot of technique analysis on this thread. My advice is to just get out there and keep practicing. What started out as my most awkward cast has now become one of my strongest.
No, I have no desire to do so, and dare not to!
All I have tried to do is to bring people together - (see post #124 and #130)
Mr. Goran Andersson, Mr. Henrik Mortensen and even Mr. Steve Rajeff!! all united!
By roughly break down their casting mecanics into two stages - stroke and snap.
So actually I think I am try to unify those sub-styles by using simple principle as you said!!
Anyway, I agree I could be very boring sometimes.... well... maybe next time I will be funnier!
Thanks Dan. I'm down to around 450 and 39' with an 8/9 now...and it feels very nice. My cackhand is pretty decent thanks to Bruce and Mark, but Bruce has convinced me to just switch hands instead of using the cackhand. I've been working on it and it bombs line out with less effort then the cackhand. I've also got a 9/10 belly that I'll cut down and pair with the 8/9 tips at around 35.5' and 435grns.
Thanks Bruce, I really appreciate your help.
Kudos to all you guys who switch hands and keep with it long enough to master it. I go with it sometimes on floating lines but don't attempt with sinking heads or heavy tips. Maybe someday.
Dan check back to the early pages...yes wade, perhaps power wade though it and you'll see where I felt some what the same way about switching hands...just a couple hours on the water and I was casting some serious line, day two on the water and it has already started to feel somewhat normal. It's the stripping that is still a little awkward.
Just try to clarify some arguments and misunderstandings in this thread. (Please Don’t read if you are not involved in this thread, thanks!)
Be honest, I enjoy writings and exchange ideas with others in this thread a lot, whether it is a agreement or a disagreement. As I said earlier in this thread, some concepts are difficult to convey with verbal approach and easily lead to the misunderstandings. It is much easier for me to use video and explain along with the demonstration. And in this particular forum WFF, we have a very advanced system to allow us to put the videos side by side (play side by side simultaneously) along with the writings. This is the future way I intend to do to reduce the unwanted arguments.
Fortunately, or unfortunately, we did run into some miscommunications in this thread.
1) For instance, “the drift” debating in Goran’s style. After reading other’s posts I suddenly realized we were talking about different "drift" (my “drift” was defined as: other movements that AGAINST tight body pivot point in Goran’s cast; others’ “drift” is actually a parallel acceleration = stroke i.e Henrik's body movement). I did provide this clarification on the post # 104.
2) Second problem we have: the debating about “CAN YOU make a cast ...”
Honestly, I am not a fan to make a claimer of that CAN/CAN’T type of statement. People should never abstract the idea of explantation into a rule. Especially in this thread, all I tried to do is to dissect SPECIFIC caster’s biomechanics and analysis their casting mechanic along with layman’s examples. See post #52 my writing “continue talk about the limited body movement in underhand casting.” Often, the "word" I used in the discussion were "advantageous" and "disadvantageous" type. Not Can/Can't type.
3) Also by compare two different caster’s styles will help audience to understand the “WHY” process, and help them generate “HOW” procedures to facilitate the understanding and learning. This is the main reason I brought up Henrik Mortensen and Steve Rajeff’s videos. (this is a standard procedures for other industries/sciences).
In our case, I was all focused on Goran’s underhand technique (fix pivot point, two finger grip, tight to the body) see started post #46 . and analyze WHY he want to do this? I have no intention/desire of knowing (CAN you cast with moving pivot?). I really don’t care if you can running along the beach and make a cast, or jumping through rocks and make a cast… all I intended to do is to focus on Goran Andersson’s underhand technique and provide video and some explanation along with it. So the scope of my writing was very small.
Anyway, just proved how important for me to provide videos along with writings in the future. I think that would be less misunderstanding and miscommunication. Good learning process in my part! as I said earlier, I enjoy this thread
I'll have a go at the thread.
Also try some "wrong hand" casting tomorrow.