River closure

Discussion in 'Steelhead' started by skyrise, Jan 3, 2014.

  1. golfman44 Coho Queen

    Posts: 1,188
    Kirkland
    Ratings: +609 / 0
    For sure. Its just survival in the lake has to be sooooo much easier than survival in the ocean...which was the point iI was trying to make
  2. ambassadeur10000 Member

    Posts: 109
    Ratings: +6 / 0
    I understand that, but I don't believe anyone is happy with how the hatcheries on the west coast are run.
  3. Jason Rolfe Wanderer

    Posts: 1,176
    the beach
    Ratings: +371 / 0
    I think most fly anglers are more concerned with the fact that we have the hatcheries in the first place.

    Whether or not hatchery brats in the GL do better than in the PNW is a moot point as far as how happy anyone is.
  4. FinLuver Active Member

    Posts: 338
    Mid-Willamette Valley
    Ratings: +82 / 0
    Why "fly anglers"?

    What makes them so special??
  5. Jason Rolfe Wanderer

    Posts: 1,176
    the beach
    Ratings: +371 / 0
    What makes you ask so many inane questions?

    Sent from my HTCONE using Tapatalk
  6. Charles Sullivan dreaming through the come down

    Posts: 2,193
    bellingham wa
    Ratings: +450 / 0
    One thing that makes fly anglers special is the they spend time on WASHINGTON FLYFISHING.

    Go Sox,
    cds
  7. _WW_ Fishes with Wolves

    Posts: 1,823
    Skagit River
    Ratings: +570 / 0
    Go out and have a look around! 'nuff said!
  8. FinLuver Active Member

    Posts: 338
    Mid-Willamette Valley
    Ratings: +82 / 0
    For WW & JR...

    If "fly fishers" are so special and conservation minded, then why do ALL the books written by those so called "steelhead saviors" have photos with a finger or stick crammed through the gills of a fish?

    And why would they "target" wild fish while they hold up for the rains before they enter their natal rivers??

    YEP...a pretty SPECIAL group of people!!
  9. Charles Sullivan dreaming through the come down

    Posts: 2,193
    bellingham wa
    Ratings: +450 / 0
    Finlover,

    Many of those photos are old. Perspectives and knowledge change over time. I'm sure happy every event in my life was not photographed for future judgement.

    As far as targetting wild fish goes. I target them with a clear conciense (sp?). I understand the mortality and feel it's acceptable in the populations I target. Because, it's super low.

    Lastly, it's become clear that you have a problem with C&R. That is fine. I don't understand it, but it's fine. It may be better, so we all know what your actual problems are re: hatchery fish and C&R. It seems to deal with hte spring King hatchery lawsuit in Oregon. Mostly what you've done in your time here is to call people hypocrites and liars without backing it up much. What are these studies being used improperly? I am truly interested.

    Go Sox,
    cds
  10. FinLuver Active Member

    Posts: 338
    Mid-Willamette Valley
    Ratings: +82 / 0
    CS...the books are old and new; and some of those authors are still on this earth.

    "I guess if my orgy days were over and I had my fun, I'd be advocating for abstinence or a total ban on sex too."

    For the record, I practice catch n release for wild fish (I teach my son the same)..and .hatchery fish are fair game for the table.

    The issue I have is the science that is being preached that is "skewed" to sway people to a "particular" point of view and then preached to the masses as gospel; and with some of the preachers (above said authors) spreading the word. There are young and impressionable minds out there; misinforming them is wrong.

    What I really like (or dislike) about the science out there, is it contradicts itself and the inverse of the findings can be equally true and relevant. And often times, the scientific reports utilize data from a river that are miles away and totally different in its ecological diversity; therefore it MUST be "relevant".

    Just as you pointed out (regarding the printed materials), the "old" hatchery methods were outdated and bad. Here in Oregon, bringing a cross bred Washington fish to propagate ours rivers was wrong. But, I believe hatcheries have their place too. Take them away and your wild stocks will decrease even more; and your international fleet will be raping them with unregulated abandon.

    To say "hatcheries are bad on wild fish" is pure nonsense; in certain practices/circumstances that may be true. But, I would say the decline in fish stocks has more to do with management practices, harvest, and environmental issues than it does with hatchery-vs-wild issues.

    To preach hatchery fish are somehow "inferior" is a fallacy. For the "dumb" fish to survive all the issues it must to make it back to spawn; and then to says its offspring are somehow "dumb" too is inaccurate science. Because if that's the case, one could make a case to ban artificial insemination, test tube babies and surrogacy (or better yet, anyone one welfare can not have kids) on the premise the these offspring would be "dumb" and somehow inferior. (Kinda sounds like the relevant data used in a scientific fishy report... doesn't it??)

    When it comes to the "science", it all comes down to who's paying for it as to the results we get.

    Case in point, the studies regarding coffee and egg consumption...about every other week, it was "good" it was "bad" it was "good' it was "bad"... (you get the picture).

    Give me concrete facts to support the science and I'll support the cause 100%!! But you better have the science to support the inverse as well for public viewing.

    ps: the Oregon lawsuit...are you referring to the McKenzie River? If so, to have a underlying motive hidden under the guise of conservation is the worst type of informational preaching out there...IMHO...but holding ODFW to the fire under the rules that have been established is good...unfortunately for ODFW, they have contradictory objectives trying to appease both sides of the table...and the fish didn't get an invite or table setting.
  11. Jason Rolfe Wanderer

    Posts: 1,176
    the beach
    Ratings: +371 / 0
    On second thought--Deleted.

    I'm not going to get into this with you because there is clearly no point in doing so.

    Sent from my HTCONE using Tapatalk
    Alex MacDonald likes this.
  12. Chris Johnson Member: Native Fish Society

    Posts: 1,720
    Bellingham Wa.
    Ratings: +276 / 1
    http://nativefishsociety.org/wp-con...al-populations-associated-with-hatcheries.pdf

    http://nativefishsociety.org/wp-content/uploads/Chilcote-et-al-2011-h-w-reduced-recruitment.pdf

    There's some readin for ya finluvr.

    Your argument are specious at best. The reason people call hatchery fish inferior is (imo), they are not just artificially propagated but are raise in a controlled environment thus subverting the process of natural selection until they head to the ocean. Comparing that to artificial insemination is "apples and oranges".
  13. Salmo_g Active Member

    Posts: 7,286
    Your City ,State
    Ratings: +1,387 / 0
    Sg
  14. ambassadeur10000 Member

    Posts: 109
    Ratings: +6 / 0
    Is a 20 pound hatchery fish still a 20 pounder?
  15. FinLuver Active Member

    Posts: 338
    Mid-Willamette Valley
    Ratings: +82 / 0
    "Did you know that ODFW originally stocked Siletz summer steelhead in Willamette tributaries, but they didn't work? Then they stocked Skamania hatchery strain in the same tributaries, and those are the successful hatchery summer steelhead programs you have there now."

    "Inferior is an appropriate word choice when referring to the success of most hatchery fish spawning and reproducing in the natural environment. Less successful is also appropriate and accurate. However, your remarks about artificial insemination and test tube babies is a strong indication that you don't understand science very well at all. And that is perhaps why your criticisms in this forum are garnering so much negative feedback.

    Sg....THANK YOU for proving my point!! :D

    OH...and I didn't say anything about "100% probability" science...

    butfeelfreetoinjectyourscienceinanytime
  16. Danielocean Steelhead Virgin

    Posts: 1,145
    Monroe
    Ratings: +399 / 0
  17. Charles Sullivan dreaming through the come down

    Posts: 2,193
    bellingham wa
    Ratings: +450 / 0
    Sweet Jesus.

    Go Sox,
    cds
  18. Danielocean Steelhead Virgin

    Posts: 1,145
    Monroe
    Ratings: +399 / 0
    CLEAR THE BENCH.
  19. ambassadeur10000 Member

    Posts: 109
    Ratings: +6 / 0
    It's interesting that there is so much natural reproduction with the strains of steelhead in the Great Lakes
  20. _WW_ Fishes with Wolves

    Posts: 1,823
    Skagit River
    Ratings: +570 / 0
    "ALL the books"
    There you go again with more over the top BS.
    I have lots of books about steelhead with none of these photos you describe. I know you would like for us to think that you have, and have read, "ALL" the books, but I can assure you that you have not.

    And no one has proved your point...because you don't have one. :)

    There are a bunch of guys that also have everything all figured out waiting for you over at Gamefishin'...:D
    constructeur likes this.