sage 1016 - light line casting

Discussion in 'Spey Clave' started by yuhina, Nov 22, 2011.

  1. yuhina

    yuhina Tropical member

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  2. Wayne Kohan

    Wayne Kohan fish-ician

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    Hey Mark, I notice you are using touch and go casting. Sometimes it seems like you start forward even before the anchor hit. Also it appears the anchor point is way to your right, but I suspect that is just looking that way due to the angle of the camera. You make the whole thing look so easy, I was impressed with your casting the long line, CND with the 70' belly. Wish I could do that.

    wayne
     
  3. yuhina

    yuhina Tropical member

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  4. Wadecalvin

    Wadecalvin Member

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    Cool Mark- is the gps your favorite on this rod? Where are you getting them? Tried the NC Fall Favorite 70 per chance? Happy Thanksgiving bro!
     
  5. SPEYBUM

    SPEYBUM Member

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    Mark,
    Simple Question and Prodon my not undersanding.
    What are you attempting to show on your Video Clips I have studied them seveal time and just do
    not get it.
    Sorry
     
  6. yuhina

    yuhina Tropical member

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  7. SPEYBUM

    SPEYBUM Member

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    1) choose the fly first and select a suitable fly line to carry it. either skagit or scandi... then select a rod to cast the line.
    (my thought here is simple, if I can get away with light line, I try not to use heavy line, of course this is under the good performance standard)

    2) modern graphite rod opens up a huge window of line selection for experimenting and try out to fit different fishing condition. To me, it is more fun to fish different lines (and different techniques) on one rod than fish one line over and over again.

    3) experimenting different fly lines on one rod will help caster to understand the rod property and limit, thus, have better understanding the feel and casting mechanics.

    4) simply share the joy I have in light line casting and fishing.

    I would love to hear what you think. Aaron
    sincerely,



    Let’s Look at each of you answers one at time.

    1) choose the fly first and select a suitable fly line to carry it. either skagit or scandi... then select a rod to cast the line.
    (my thought here is simple, if I can get away with light line, I try not to use heavy line, of course this is under the good performance standard)


    The fly size and line weight to get the job done with least amount of effort.
    Light lining a rod in on sense and lack of any better way to say it would be tip casting.
    This is same physics you would use if casting to a fish 20 ft away verses a cast to a fishing 60 feet way.
    You are using less of he rod to do the work.
    But here is the fly in ointment you will use more energy to do the task.
    As any good caster worth his weight in single malt will tell you least is not more.
    The less mass I move for even rod the more energy I have to put into the equation.
    I look at the total of efficacy of the rod and effeteness of the caster to do a given task.
    Granted you can do but what are you sacrificing.


    modern graphite rod opens up a huge window of line selection for experimenting and try out to fit different fishing condition. To me, it is more fun to fish different lines (and different techniques) on one rod than fish one line over and over again.

    Modern carbon fiber fly rod ( in fact any fly rod) is a ineffective spring. Meaning the rod will do nothing a has no stored energy.
    Carbon fiber and now micro carbon fiber is a very small filament many less than .001 in diameter but all hold the same characteristics and that is they are stiff.
    The resident harmonics of the fly rod is developed by how fast it ovates (goes from round to flat and returns the rod you could call this quick.).
    The harmonics are scaled through out the rod to give the desired effect for a given mass.
    The more mass the deeper the load and deeper the load the efficiently we can use the ineffective spring.
    Note The longer the mass the slower the rod will load. This has nothing to do with the old bamboo terminology of slow action or fast action rods. That deal with taper which is a different subject.

    So granted you have a grain window which you can use but how much of the rod are you using and for what loss of efficiency of the given task.



    experimenting different fly lines on one rod will help caster to understand the rod property and limit, thus, have better understanding the feel and casting mechanics.

    This is very true and the understanding of casting characteristics is essential in understanding good cast mechanics.
    The only down side is you can form some very bad habits if care is not taken for the given task.


    4) simply share the joy I have in light line casting and fishing.


    Sharing is what I do best.
    The next thing is understanding the excise from the other person prospective.

    Question for you.
    What are you thoughts on underhand casting and or modern Scandinavian Style.

    :cool:
     
  8. yuhina

    yuhina Tropical member

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  9. Fred Krow

    Fred Krow Member

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    I have experimented with the Sage 10160 Z-Axis with Mark.

    It is not about distance with the longer rod,,,,, line control is superior with the 16ft vs 12.5ft rods.

    The 10160 Z-Axis is not tip casting with the 400gr lines,,,,, watch the videos and note the flex in the rod.

    The Z-Axis design is an Overdampened Harmonic Oscillator, it will not tip oscillate and cause waves in the outgoing line.

    The recovery speed is very quick with the rod design,,,,,,it is independent of where the rod bends or overall flex for a given line weight/distance cast.

    Casting a light line weight a given distance takes less energy applied to the rod blank than a heavier line weight.

    The 16ft rod will cast very smoothly with 750gr as well as approx. 400gr lines.

    ___________________

    Sunday we will compare several rod designs to the Sage 10160 Z-Axis and post the results.

    Sage 10160-3 Graphite III - RPL design
    Loomis 10150-3 IMX design
    Sage 10150-4 TCR Graphite IIIe (predates the Gen 5 technology)
    Albright 10150-3 Unknown graphite, made in Korea
    T&T 10160-3 Very stiff powerful rod

    Regards,
    FK
     
  10. yuhina

    yuhina Tropical member

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  11. Chad Lewis

    Chad Lewis NEVER wonder what to do with your free time

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    I think I met that guy! Does he go to the Farmington in Connecticut a lot?
     
  12. yuhina

    yuhina Tropical member

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  13. SPEYBUM

    SPEYBUM Member

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    Mark,

    I as a rule do not arguer I just state facts as I see them.
    Left to my own means I would not answered you reply but do to the number of PMs and e-mails I think I should.
    First thing first, I am not a physicist or a mathematician or an Expert Caster ( my parent were married so I see no need for titles): I am just a fly fishing enthusiasts clear and simple.
    So I think we must seek some common ground so I put forward what and how I view the Art of Speycasting. As it more of art than a Science. Remember that their is no exact guarantees in Flycasting as in life.
    I have a trained my self when instructing as well as just living to look at the task from the students paradyne.

    I am going to use an example of your reply as I have no Idea what you want.

    “Question for you, Aaron. Lifting a 900 grain long belly and 600 grain long belly which one take more energy? Forward stroke a 600 long belly line versus forward stroke a 600 grain Skagit head which one take more energy (same deliver distance say 70 feet). I have two answers in mind here, but would like to throw out the questions first…”

    My Inquire
    Is this a rhetorical question or practical.
    Are well still casting the 1610 Sage Z-Axis and which phases is it. The first porto type I cast of this rod was completely different the first year production ( phase 1)
    The Porto type was a great rod but their first year production ( phase 1) I felt like the butt would break between gripe and handle ( I am gun shy with rods that feel like this being I have the dubious honor of breaking lower grip of two rods and breaking the handle just above the reel seat on one other. I prefer to credit this to manufacturing anomalies rather than to my casting abilities. It is embarrassing to break your clients rod and little hard to explain to the warranty department.)
    Do you have phase 1, phase 2 or the current production model and/or is there any different between the rod that you have and the one’s which I have cast

    A long belly by the AFTMA standards weight is measured at 80 ft.
    What is the total length of the Skagit line?

    So this is where I become confused I will have to strip line in for the long belly to make the 70 ft cast and shoot how much line for the Skagit not knowing the head length,

    I have no way to calculate lift momentum as it stands or to calculate the load factor in the rod during the forward cast.
    If you do, do the math and send it along I am truly interested.

    What I am trying to say and must ad not very well without having your rod in my hands and the prescribed lines I have no way to answer the question.
    To answer it any other way than to try it would be speculation.
    Being things are not alway what they seem I opt to the practical.


    We could go on with this getting deeper and deeper in digging the fly poop out of the pepper to what avail.

    What I would rather do see where we differ in out speycasting and go from their.

    IMHO The essentials in Speycasting are the anchor and underhand.
    The essentials of the underhand is initiate and execute the cast around the underhand.
    In other word from the tensioning lift the to the end of the forward cast should be executed with the underhand,
    If during the cast you loose communication with the underhand you are executing the cast with the top hand or tip casting.
    So just ask yourself this question “What is my underhand feeling?”

    Your disclaimer at the top of reply sounded odd to me.. 
What I had written about in my last post is what I teach in my basic Speycasting course and on the Day On the River. (OBTW is in it’s15th year and I am proud to say (even it I have to) won me the Federation of Flyfishers Board of Governor’s Casting Committee's Mentor of the Year award.
    Which is rare for me for my position in life is my head above water and below the radar working in my circle of influence.

    Getting back to basics
    Terms and standards (Which the Industry has set not me)
    I work by standards put forth by Federation of Flyfishers and various at home and abroad professional groups.


    My rating system of casters runs Beginner, Intermediate and Advanced.

    Beginner
    One who adequately execute all the speycast using two handed fly rod with both hands from either sides of the river to normal fishing distance.

    Intermediate Spey Caster adequately execute all the speycast using two handed fly rod with both hands from either sides of the river, Overhead Cast in both Oval and straight line and has the ability to use various styles of lines at will.

    Advanced Spey Caster adequately execute all the speycast using a two handed fly rod and single handed fly rod with both hands from either sides of the river, Overhead Cast in both Oval and straight line and has the ability to use various styles of lines at will.



    The rod
    Which is simply any flyrod which can cast with two hands i.e. two handed fly rod.
    A flyrod in the simplest terms is a lever and a spring.
    The lever is a lifting agent and spring reacts to the load.
    Load is the line mass which we are trying to move.
    We can break the rod into two parts, the butt and the tip.
    The butt is broken down into two parts the grip that part which is below the reel seat and closest to the pivot point and the handle the rest of the butt.
    Let us digress a little bit
    Years ago at the Kingdome while talking with Goran Andersson about his then new style of casting short heads ( more on the lengths of heads in minute).
    What I learn for Goran was this, he just simple pointed out that the entire rod moments should be done with the with the rod hand closest to the pivot point. The Pivot point is the end of the fly rod.
    Strange we cast the single hand with hand closed to the pivot point and at that time most Speycasters used the top hand to initiate the cast and try to execute the forward cast only with the bottom hand.


    Thus comes the term top hand caster or tip casting using the top hand to manurer the anchor in to place and try to make the forward cast with the underhand.

    The essentials of underhand casting are to initiate and execute the cast with the underhand the rest is internet hype.
    As a good friend has dubbed the phrase of e-caster those people who can cast better with their mouse than a their fly rod.

    The Modern Speycast
    I and others in the profession have broken the cast into two parts, the anchor maneuvering portion and the cast.
    The anchor maneuvering portion is all about parallels keeping the anchor in parallel with the forward cast.
    The cast is all about oval and keeping the fly line moving under constant tension.
    The essential of spey casting for me is about two thing the underhand and anchor.
    Scandinavian Style is about three thing the underhand, anchor and stealth.
    I wish this idea was around in 1975 when I started Speycasting with a two handed Salmon rod. ( two handed fly rods were called Salmon rods in those days and long before Mike Maxwell dubbed the Speyrods. His reasoning being that we used a Speycast to fish more for Steelhead than Salmon.) It would have made my journey much easier.

    The Lines
    Speylines have been the bane of most speycasters existence.
    In working to make things clear about Speylines the
    American Fishing Tackle Manufacturers Association (AFTMA)
    set out to make a standardize the Speylines by head length and weight.
    Shooting Head, Short Belly, Medium Belly and Long Belly.
    By giving the proactive buyer a chance to see what range of performance could be met with given a line.
    I have enclosed the standards as worked out by AFTMA.
    Shooting Head, Short Belly, Medium Belly and Long Belly.

    The one amendment was to the shooting heads the industry definition now is any fly line which is made in such a way to pull running line out of the guides

    Grain Window started out as way to match each of the Line categories as rated standards to any specific rod as of this time I think Hardy is the only one left that gives a specific weigh and length of each of the line for a given rod.
    Categories.

    Like all good plans the term grain window has gone amuck. Now do to the batch lot inconsistency of batch lot rods ( are those rods that are made in section rather in on blank and cut specified length to make the appropriate rod )the Grain window of rod could mean anything.

    Here is one case
    Gentleman showed up on the Day On The River and ask me to cast his rod “It just dose not feel right” The rod stated it’s grain window was from 425 to 650 grains.
    The line was a Skagit 650 ( here again he was told that the sink tip did not count toward the total weight of the line (with a 156 grain sink tip)) total weigh of 806 grains.
    The mass was to great for the rod and if folded (rod makers term meaning the blank flatted out and could not return to oval fast enough to transmit the power) the rod was bent in such away that the line would crash before the anchor was pulled. The line rod was in fact compressing ( another rod builders term for load inappropriately bending the rod).

    The Grain window on the rod said it could cast the mass the key was it could not do it over as short load.
    Here again the good taste, logic and common sense the code of all gentleman had to prevail and new l bought.


    One thing I have learn with modern Speyrods no one knows better than the rod manufactures engineer as what the grain window is for the rod
    to get its best performance.

    Skagit and Scandinavian Shooting Heads
    Most any one on the Planet has more experience with Skagit than I do.
    I dabbled a little with Marlo Bumpus, Ed Ward and Mike Kinney during their conception and early development stages.

    I found it was an adequate line for the purpose it was designed for and I opted for the Industry definition of a Skagit “ an equipment style used on some rivers in Northwest Washington”

    Note I have fished with ED and watched boom out cast to well over 100ft in gale force winds at the Skagit Mixer.
    Ed is one of the best fisherman and casters I know he is one who could make a 80 ft cast while standing in a phone booth while balance a glass of Scotch on his head and never spill a drop.

    Mike Kinney the great showman. I watch him defend the Skagit distance casting when on the e-casters was berating the line by gently making a cast on the Snoqualmie river beyond most mortal man’s belief.
    Mike has an uncanny ability to take the most contrived assembly of rod parts put them together give them a wiggle and dig in his box of reel and make them work.

    I would opt to call their style of casting Northwest Underhand casts as most of truly accomplished people using this style of line are working the underhand correctly.

    I have opted to work with Scandinavian Style lines and work with full sinking shooting heads for winter work.

    I left the sink tip lines to teaching and I use the full sinking lines for my fishing.

    Scandinavian Style shooting heads came out of the great sense of competition.
    Competition casting in Scandinavia is huge. Their teams work as casting the way our professional sports team work here.
    It was simple if the line worked in competition it would work as well to fish with.
    Modern Scandinavian shooting heads are not short.
    The rivers of Sweden and Denmark are small compared to the Rivers of Norway and Finland so the head length will vary.
    I have Scandinavian floating shooting heads which are up to a 100 ft long (granted they are made for competition but they fish just fine).

    Up to a few years ago the heads came without loops and you just simply tuned for the fly size, rod weight and rod length to get the anchor and load which you desired.
    Now with pre-loop lines I simply cut the loops off and tune them to the application desired

    I have left out most mid and long belly lines for by definition they are shooting heads with integrated running lines.
    Shooting head by definition is any fly line designed to pull running line through the guides.

    I want you to look at this text and see where if any we differ.

    I do not have a lot of time to work on this but will try.
    Working 60 hours a week for the airlines.
    Holding my THCI and CI workshops, classes , Day On The River and now my Skype Class room takes about another 60 hours.

    But I would like as time allows to get back to what I did not understand in you videos.
     
  14. yuhina

    yuhina Tropical member

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  15. yuhina

    yuhina Tropical member

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    ...eo]
     
  16. fisshman26

    fisshman26 Member

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    Mark, if you were to adjust the timing ie.slow down with the longer line to allow the extra length to do its thing I think you would find that it is not harder. You always have to adjust your stroke length and timing to allow for shorter or longer heads wether single or double hand lines...correct?
     
  17. yuhina

    yuhina Tropical member

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  18. fisshman26

    fisshman26 Member

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    Mark,
    My observation was concerning the last two videos that you have up, in the first with the longer line you have the exact same speed and stroke as the second so this might be why you `feel` that they are harder.
    If shorter lines were more efficient they would rule the distance game....but they dont.
     
  19. Wadecalvin

    Wadecalvin Member

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    Wouldnt the longer line have more kinetic energy going for it to produce the longer casts? and overcome any air drag?

    Just a wild stab, as at face value I am not that smart, but once you get to know me you will realize, I am a complete moron.:ray1:

    Great posts and discussion fellas.
     
  20. yuhina

    yuhina Tropical member

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