Discussion in 'Spey Clave' started by yuhina, Nov 22, 2011.
This thread is really good. Thanks.
Also, do you have any experience with say a 5wt spey and say a 3wt line?? I am looking for a super light spey setup for swinging soft hackles on large runs.
Mark, the main reason the long lines will always go further is because they turn over slower than the short lines. People have tried skagit lines at SOR and the rules even favor said lines but they just cannot compete with the long lines.
The reason the rod is bending deeper on the lift with the longer line in your video is because you are rushing the lift, very simple really.
Mark we are talking about a speycasting comp not a spin casting comp although if you really want to have some fun lash 2 650grn skagit heads together and atach them to mono on a big spinning reel on a 18ft 11wght rod and see how far it will go.
The rules are that the lines must be floating, delaying turnover is imprtant because once a line has turned over it is no longer pulling or shooting as it were.
I think the reason you prefer the lighter lines is because of the feel that you get of casting off of the tip which compliments your casting style and yes I have experimented with this years ago but once you learn to bend the rod properlly it does the work for you instead of you doing the work and thus it is less effort expended. The video of you casting the longer line is a prime example, by your own admision you are still learning the long belly and thus not casting it properlly and it shows that you are exerting way more energy than is needed to cast that line.
as usual Mark you lost me. I am not arguing `Your` opinion that lighter lines are less work.
If you can bend the rod properlly it is less work overall. Does it not make more sense to let the rod do the work for you?
Take a look at the worlds best distance casters and you will notice one very common thing, the line goes a very long ways with minimal effort.
But then again they could all be wrong and you are right!?????
Guys, casting is a subjective thing and part of the artform that is fly fishing. There is no "right" way to cast any fly rod with any line. The only thing that makes the cast "right" or "wrong" is did it put the fly in the fishes mouth?
I am very intrigued by this thread and the responses, even though some are over my head. It seems you are getting alot of flak yuhina for casting a non traditional system, but someone has to be there to innovate new techniques. All i see in the video are long, easy casts, with minimal time between. Looks super effective to me!
There is nothing new about using lighter or heavier lines than what is stated for the rod being used.
My only contention is Mark is saying that a light line is less work than a heavier line but does not explain it other than that is what he `feels`
The rod is a spring and lever the deeper you can bend it the more the rod does the work for you, the less you bend it the more force you have to exert.
The videos are great, nothing to take away from Mark, but his technique is the cause of more exertion in the one with the longer line this is his own admission of needing to work on his long belly technique.
As I stated the feel he is getting from the lighter line is due to the line being tip cast, something that compliments his casting and the particular rod he is using.
Mechanics, priciples and theory aside, if it feels easier it's easier.
It's like, do I use one pulley or three pullies to lift a 300# weight? They'll all get the weight off the floor with the right amount of strenght...the single pulley using 3X more strenght and less motion, the other using less strengh but 3X the motion...in the end the energy expended is about the same but the percieved effort may depend on the puller.
IN conclusion "It may feel easier" but it will never perform to the rods potential....but if 3/4 potential/distance is all you need to catch fish, I'd say the most effiecient cast is the one you use. (The casters at SPEY O RAMA, no matter how effiecent or far they cast, they always get skunked!)
I went from a long stroke on full flexing (SOFT) rods to prefering to cast more off the tip. Moving to rods that favored this style while going to longer and longer lines. More for the loop shape I wanted combined with what I thought was efficient. Somewhere in that transition I lost a lot of maximum distance. My stroke became overly compact where a very narrow grain range worked right. And the rest didn't. Too much work. All of this worked just fine until one day you get tired of what you are doing.
Being able to lengthen your stroke is the Key to what Bruce is saying. Seeing first hand how he pointed out one super simple flaw in my stroke...being versatile is more important IMO than forcing yourself into corners because something doesn't 'feel right'. Learn to make it right. Hell I even started learning to stop being so picky about loop shape and look at the total package of turnover/line speed and did the cast go where I needed it. I am not a comp guy. Never will be. But what these guys are doing translates into EVERYTHING with our casting to catch that darn fish. Reguardless how many casts come up empty at SOR.
I also found that by lengthening my casting stroke, what I once thought was more work ended up being less overall work. With 20% more distance when pushing it to max. The average fishing distance became even more of a chip shot. Not surprising that my rod action tastes rapidly changed with this 'improvement'. Where a wider range of rods once again became enjoyable. Plus being able to extract more from them.
Mark, believe me Steve not a top hand dominate caster! You need too watch the video closer. Most of the best casters rely on the bottom hand, no news there.
No Steve does not cast the same as Andrew just as you do not cast the same as me. You were the one that stated the truth that we are all built different etc. Andrew uses a `block` on the top hand on the forward cast and Steve follows thru with the top but they both commence the cast with the bottom hand.
I have seen both cast in person and can tell you that Steve`s cast is quite decieving, like I said look closer.