Discussion in 'Spey Clave' started by yuhina, Nov 22, 2011.
Really? A short head, same weight as a long head penetrates the wind better? Lets get real numbers out there. How short and how long? How heavy and what rod are we using? The shorter head only outperforms the longer head if they carry the same mass and momentum with the same 'breeze' AND it actually has less air drag through density/diameter. Otherwise it could be the other way around. You are making a ridiculous laboratory assumption that the longer line always equals more surface area. IT DEPENDS ON SPECIFICS. Real fishing conditions are more complex than youtube casting demos. Comp casting takes this game to a level far beyond my understanding/skill set.
But lets go back and define 'outperform' as this is the real sticking point of ACTUAL FISHING CONDITIONS. Not casting into a wind tunnel with a casting robot. What do you mean by outperform? Distance? Turnover? Wind drift? Direct head wind? Angled head wind? Side wind? How much wind? Caloric output (actual effort, not perceived)? A 900 grain 95' head vs. a 900 grain 25' head. Each cast to 100'. Same rod. Real world conditions you also have to factor handling 75' v. 5' of running line PLUS what it takes to get that cast to land at 100'. Does time become a factor where the long head caster can get 5 casts off to the short SH users three? Oh yeah, real world again, how much energy are you losing with the friction of that 75'+ running line coming off the water(does your running line float well)/out of your hands/through the guides? What happens to that lightweight shooting line when the wind catches it, causing up or downstream drift? Have you ever watched this when casting a spinning rod? Seeing the arc as the nearly weightless line is blown off course with the potential effect of acting like an air brake? Let alone having to fix this problem after your lure/flyline lands and is fishing. Both clips of 'Jerry' show him removing running line tangles. And this is for 75' - 85' casts (there isn't a chance those casts come even close a LINEAR 100'). Where does this rank for overall performance when you have even one cast stopped by twists and tangles?
See the 'secret' to these new fangled shooting heads isn't entirely their tapers its their total weight-grains/foot. All you are doing with these 'underlining' experiments is getting the grains per foot back down, closer to that of a SPEYLINE. Yes of course the weight concentration makes a difference (which is what really separates the extinct windcutter from a GPS). You can't cast the underlined speyline because you have dropped this ratio too low for your/anyone's skills. The 'driving myself crazy' comment stems from a decade of chasing the lightest grains I could get away with. The difference where one chases speed with a light arrow instead of momentum with the heavy slow arrow, using the same bow. There is an optimal balance in there. I do find it strange that I have come full circle again, where the slow bend through the butt cap rods easily outperform the fast cast off the top half of the blank rod. Where the modern UK tapers so called 'through action' with fast recovery are 'pretty good'. BTW these rods smoke shooting heads just as well as they do with long bellies and everything inbetween.
To your other point about casting in the dark. Yes wind, water, waves, wading depth, casting distance et al make a difference. When you put in the time to develop consistant repeatable form through FEEL you will understand that spey casting without visual clues is no different than overhead. It is by feel (and sound). Will you be making world beater casts? No but you likely aren't either with the overhead presentation at night. You are making broad assumptions again that I only use one line. I prefer to fish long belly lines (90'+) including CND DT's when appropriate. This isn't a sniffing and measuring contest that 'oh I can cast a longer head than you' bragging type of thing. It is just what I learned to incorporate into my fishing doing exactly what you are doing- learning as much as you can by getting your hands on most of it. After many years of practice and fishing these are the lines I learned to use and enjoy. Do indeed cast and fish skagits and scandi's and everything inbetween.
How bout it big fella? c'mon, a little casting demo. If Mark can't demonstrate the words, maybe you can.....
please, if I say it real nice?
aw, c'mon, be a spey God and show me up. I put up a crappy cast, let's see your best.
Up to your hiney in a river, any head length, any setup you've got.
Surely one of you guys can actually get out there for a half day to get 4 seconds of vid that looks good.
Well, I guess we found the empty sacks in this thread.
How bout you Mark? In your vast collection of vids, do you have any showing you, yourself, making a fishable cast on a river? with your thighs wet ? at all?
I forgot...reference your post #149
-excellent casting mechanics naturally result in distance. Excellent distance casters display excellent form, eg, excellent "biomechanics".
-Longbellies require excellent form to cast, and
-corollary: if you can't cast a longbelly, don't try to set yourself up as "casting expert"
-I'm not a distance freak, I fish on big rivers.
and this...is a keeper.
:ray1:"Just remind you If i want to fish 10 weight - big fish, striper, king.... small fly - light line; heavy fly - heavy line. This is the main reason on the first video on the first page. I fish 320-900 grain on my 10 weight 16' rod, all line has their place in my fishing conditions. Period.":rofl:
right on baby. keep schooling us. We need more advice like this.
BTW, your assertions about T&G casting in the dark are completely wrong. There are lots of us who cast in the dark, though I and most others stick to skagit or scandi heads for that kind of work.
Do I need to show you my nighttime speycasting video to confirm that?:rofl:
edit: man, I need to bow out. The pickings are way too easy here, I feel like a snagger.
Respectfully I am bowing out.
You are wise William.........
Talking theory and being able to actually cast are two very different things.
If some people `opened their minds` they might learn something but not us narrow minded types huh?
I thought I was knowledgeable for a few minutes once then I bumped into a couple guys like you.
This thread brings something to light. Some serious bullshit and some real great stuff from real "good" casters.
This fall I was fishing with Klaus Frimor; a "good" caster not poster. I have always fished stiffer, faster rods because I believed that was my style and they fit my casting personality. His comment to me was that "everyone believes faster and stiffer progressions equal more power, but they are wrong." I spent the next couple days casting rods much slower than I ever thought I'd like. What I found is what's been mentioned. The fuller flexing rod had me casting considerably further with less effort. The key was bending to the rods power (slowing down) as opposed to bending the rod with force. I want bamboo.
Mark- The single spey cast is the most difficult cast to master. Much more difficult than the switch cast. Casting In deep water, with a long belly line makes it even more difficult because it basically shortens the rod length. Several of these guys have put in lots of time mastering their craft and they know how to do these casts. It is very difficult and requires the highest skill set. Some of them are true experts and professionals. Until you can prove that you can do a change of direction single spey with a long belly line in deeper water and have it land straight they will not be interested in hearing what you have to say. They know what they are talking about bro.
Been sitting back and watching it all flow, i am sure its nearly done............. ......but not quite yet. .......off fly fishin for Pike for an hr or 2 before dark.
DTX Pro Staff.
Mark, sorry to see you edited all your posts out of this thread. There were a lot of really thought provoking points brought out, but without the whole story those points perhaps are lost.
The only point made after 176 post, a lesson for all of us...If you need to come back and retract a post perhaps it shouldn't have been said, and if you are missunderstood it's better to explain than delete...if you turely just made a bonehead comment, be a man, own it and say your sorry.
There's no respect or peace in pretending it never happened.
+1. nothing more to say, except a lesson for all is in here.
Hey James and Gentlemen,
The writings were withdrawn and preserved, not deleted. Those thoughts discussed in this thread are all important but my thoughts were not very well presented. I will need to refine it and have a better presentation next time. We will have chance. Great discussion and I truly enjoy it.
Whew, that's a relief. When I saw that Mark had pulled all his content I thought perhaps I had witnessed spontaneous human combustion first-hand. Glad to know he's still among us...
Maybe there's a short in my keyboard, something sure smells burnt.