salmon season regs

Discussion in 'Saltwater' started by Skeena88, Jan 31, 2007.

  1. chadk

    chadk Be the guide...

    I hear reports from boat fishers trolling with down riggers, bait, spoons, hoochies, etc where they hook 30 - 40 'shakers' in one outing. Considering these guys are tageting the bigger fish using lures and bait rigged with very large hooks known to take out the eyes, gills, tongues, brains, etc of the 'shakers', I really don't mind a few beach fly fishers hooking these same 'shakers' off the beaches. Oh, and many times I hear stories about the 'shaker' that must have been hooked for 20 minutes before anyone even realized it. Anyway, I guess I'm not a fan of loop holes, but I'm also not loosing any sleep over a few fly fisherman catching a handful of these 'shakers' with their smaller hooks, careful handling, etc. I think shutting down certain areas for boat fishing makes much more sense.
     
  2. Smalma

    Smalma Active Member

    GT -
    Perhaps the fact that we are having this discussion/debate is the best indication that this species by species approach to management is working. After all would not be having this discussion about the good cutthroat fishing in the south Sound without the tailoring of the cutthroat regs to fit the biologicl and status needs of the fish. I shudder to think what the fishing might be today if the management of the sea-runs had continued as one of the trout - that is one size fits all management that you seem to be pushing.

    Yes there continues to be problems with many of our fish populations and their managemetn but it would remain my opinion that managing each species based on its needs is a much sounder approach that attempting to find some general season, bag limit or size limits that fits all. Many of our management problems are more related to social, political, and economic concerns rather than biological.

    Chadk -
    I understand exactly what you are saying about the "shaker: mortality in the blackmouth fisheries. However it is important to remember that estimates of those fishing related impacts from release mortality is included in the assessment of the various fisheries and whether the over-all impacts stay at or below the federally approved co-managers FMP impacts caps. Those caps were established for each stock and based some risk assessments. Now we can debate (and likely agrue whether those risks are excessive or not) but the fact remains that any of those handling imapcts from salmon fishing during "closed season" are not included. If you think that current impacts are excessive why would anyone support adding any additional impacts no matter how small to those existing impacts?

    Something to keep in mind in this discussion is that IMHO there is probably no more fragile salmonid that a fly angler is likely to encounter in their fishing than those juvenile Chinook. Any fish that loose their scales as easily as Chinook do are very vulnerable to handling. Some good news on the handling front is that many of those in the blackmouth fisheries use "de-hookers" to release the fish rather than handling the fish. If the fish are handled like anglers typcially do for sea-runs (either for release or photos) one could expect mortalities that would several times higher than that seen with the cutts.


    Tight lines
    Curt
     
  3. gt

    gt Active Member

    to clarify, i am not 'pushing' any specific idea, only exploring why we are where we are.
     
  4. Chad: There were a few days this fall when we were catching 5+ "shakers" per hour trolling spoons for silvers. Your stories of fish hooked for 20 minutes before anybody knew are true. You just can't tell when your fishing a downrigger and such heavy gear.

    Is there any reason we can't just make it catch and release/fly fishing only during the closure? Seriously, very few people are actually catching kings on the fly and if they do are hopefully releasing them without harm. This is probably a stretch, but they could take a few days off the gear seasons to even out the "increased impact" of the "fly only" seasons.
     
  5. gt

    gt Active Member

    a part of my problem with the regulations are the inconsistencies.

    for example, the saltwater handling rule states that you can't take a fish you don't intend or are allowed to keep out of the water. however, in fresh water, you can pull natives out of the water, take your time posing, and then pretend to release your native fish unharmed. wouldn't the 'handling rule' make more sense applying to any fish that is to be released irrespective of where it was caught?

    second example, you must use a knotless net in fresh water. why not a knotless net everywhere???

    the attempt to set species specific seasons is commendable. however, we are dealing with the human species here and many folks either don't care or are intent on beating the game. with fishing allowed for SRCs anytime, anywhere, enforcement can't happen, even if there were sufficient enforcement folks to go around. so just what is the point of these specific seasons if, as we have seen posted here, there are folks out there breaking the rules and having a good time.

    over a hundred pages of if, ands and buts seems pretty excessive to this old guy. simple is always harder to achieve, but it certainly seems to me that the time has come to make the seasons simple and consistent.
     
  6. Smalma

    Smalma Active Member

    GT -
    I have to applaud your desire to see more consistent rules - hopefully that interest will carry over to some concrete proposals this cycle for regulation change proposals; I expect that we will get an opportunity to submit those proposals this spring (May?) as this year is suppose to be a major regulation cycle. As an angler keenly interested in this kinds of fisheries management questions I always review all the regulation proposals and pass on my comments /thoughts for those that I consider to be important to either resource conservation or my fishing interest so am looking forward to seeing your ideas/proposals.

    The trick has been and likely will always remain trying to balance the desire/need for simple consistent regulations with the needs of a diverse resource and angler desires. Just one example - the lake seasons would be a lot simplier for all anglers if they were just all open year round (allow anglers to catch the trout in the fall at 5/6 inches rather the following spring at a large size) and such exceptions to the rules as fly-only, selective gear and quality waters were eliminated. However I suspect that some have heart burn with such simplications of the regulations.

    FYI-
    The freshwater Fish Handling Rules say -
    "It is unlawful to totally remove salmon, steelhead or Dolly Varden/bull trout from the water if it is illegal to retain those fish, or if the angler subsequently releases the salmon, steelhead, or Dolly Varden/bull trout." can be found on page 22 of the 2006/2007 pamphlet of Washington sport fishing rules.

    As I recalled that fish handling rules between freshwater and marine waters were modified primary due to the differences in the fisheries. The challenges of fishing handling (for both the fish and angler safety) are different for the anglers if they are fishing say from a 20 foot boat in a 3/4 foot seas at Neah Bay than say for an angler at Pass Lake or on Skagit river gravel bar. Don't know if that justifies the differences but it was the rationale; maybe someone that fish in those marine fisheries can tell us if it makes sense or not.

    I probably missed something but I thought the knotless nets were only required in those fisheries under selective gear rules - similar to the prohibition on bait and barded hooks.

    Should the idea of having selective gear restrictions on some waters be eliminated in the name regulation simplication or are the benefits of that regulation worth the complication of having exceptions to the regulations?

    Tight lines
    Curt
     
  7. gt

    gt Active Member

    open year round on the lakes?? good idea. many folks would enjoy ice fishing or snow shoeing to their favorite lakes. after all these are put and take fisheries, there is no native sensitive population of fish to protect. and if there are minority cases, then list that body of water.

    thanks for the p22 reminder, salt and fresh would appear to be consistent in regards to handling. it is buring in my craw as i just attended a PSA meeting last night and sat through a series of jpegs from a licensed WA guide with native steelhead and dolly varden out of the water for me and joe photos. this young man also indicated that these fish were released! and yes, i have already emailed my concerns to the local chapter president.

    given that, i would propose a new regulation: "any licensed guide who chooses to ignore the handling rules, will have their license revoke along with their fishing priviledges, for life" any licensed guide stupid enough to put illegal pictures up for display is obviously too stupid to be licensed in this state. any angler who uses a guide who would do this, well..........

    now, since we all know that folks are catching salmon in areas closed to fishing, claiming to be in search of SRCs, needs to be reexamined. if the ESA listing of chinook has changed the nature of the game, perhaps its time to simply acknowledge this and close these sensitive areas to ALL fishing for the time periods already established.

    i really can't see the beef in this as there are still plenty of beaches to explore which are not in these chinook areas.
     
  8. Jim B

    Jim B Flyfishin' and homebrewin'....priorities ?

    Have you checked out the Tacoma News Tribune flyfishing blog http://blogs.thenewstribune.com/fish/ ? Here are fly anglers fishing the Narrows beaches at night, clearly targetting blackmouth chinook (without clipped fins), using glow-in-the-dark flies, taking them out of the water and holding them up for the camera before releasing them. With the excuse that they're fishing for SRCs in closed salmon waters, and they're bragging about it in a newspaper blog! Rules are one thing, but ethics? Come on! Reminds me of guys flyfishing for whitefish on the Yakima in the winter many years ago when it was closed for trout in the winter, and those pesky trout kept hitting those whitefish nymphs and had to be released! But there, the trout populations were (and still are) not only robust, years later the Yakima was opened year-round for trout....the populations of Puget Sound chinook cannot make that same claim, C&R or not.
     
  9. RedFive

    RedFive Member

    Just wanted to point out a few things about my blog here:

    1) Every post is dated
    2) If you check those dates, you'll see that the blackmouth were caught during the OPEN season for salmon
    3) The "excuse that they're fishing for SRCs" wasn't an excuse--we expressly went out for those fish and if you read the content of 2/4's post, you'll see that I'm bummed about the closure and even titled it "Cutties for a month!"

    I suggest that, before you decide to call someone out on what you perceive to be unethical practices, you get your facts straight.

    As for targeting blackmouth (again during OPEN season)--I'm not sure you can really do that very effectively, even at night, what with all the rezzies around at the same time. The blackmouth were a welcome bonus (for me, at least) and none were harmed during handling, either while landing or during the brief snapshots. The anglers who were with me will back me on this.

    Speaking of other anglers, the people I fish with are all very ethical folks--that's why I fish with them. Though I'm pretty thick-skinned about my own material and realize that you can't make everyone happy, I don't appreciate the insulting judgments you're applying to my friends.

    If you have a problem with people targeting salmon during open season, take that up with the state--as far as I know, it's legal AND ethical.

    So to reiterate: get your facts straight before trying to publicly pass judgment on people.

    Jon
     
  10. Salty Fly

    Salty Fly Member

    Good job Red Five. I also fished during that time LEGALLY at night. It is truely amazing how many Cliff Clavens there are in the world.
     
  11. Wow man, thats harsh. You should probably read a bit closer next time before you blow up on a public forum.
     
  12. Steve Rohrbach

    Steve Rohrbach Puget Sound Fly Fisher

    Fe2Head, congratulations on joining WFF.com. You will be fine addition to this group. We need a few more fishing Nazi's. RedFive is one of the most conservation minded anglers that I know. He does not break the rules. I have fished with him and will continue to fish with him anytime he offers. I was with Jon on three different occasions night fishing. We fished during open seasons and we fished within the rules. I will be fishing two days this weekend on beaches where I am pursuing legal catches. They will be released carefully. Deal with it.

    Keep up the good work. Most of the good anglers I know are bailing here because of shock and awe tactics like yours. Have fun fishing by yourself. Don't bother with an apology. You have been blocked on my PM.
     
  13. gigharborflyfisher

    gigharborflyfisher Native Trout Hunter

    North of the narrows appears to now be open for salmon according to the regs...
     
  14. Roger Stephens

    Roger Stephens Active Member

    iagree with the posts by: RedFive, Salty Fly, Hendersonbaylocal, and Steve Rohrbach!


    Fe2head:

    Pretty off base comments/personal attacks that detract from your credibility! Look at the dates at the top of the blog posts and you will see that all night fishing outings/posts were in January when salmon season was open. It was obvious that they were targeting resident coho and sea-run cutthroat rather than blackmouth. Have you never inadvertently run a red light a second or two late?

    The previous posts in this thread have shown very constructive give and take. You post will/has sent this thread down a path of destructive confrontation. Washingtonflyfishing site is suppose to be all about sharing information and helping others. The tone of your post is just the opposite!

    Roger
     
  15. gt

    gt Active Member

    i am pleased to let you know that my email to the local PSA prez was responded too. before the end of that meeting night, the young man who did the presentation was pulled aside and was made aware that he was breaking the law. i feel better about this local group already.
     
  16. Chris Scoones

    Chris Scoones Administrator Staff Member

    Sorry guys, I didn't see this until today.

    fe2head, get your facts straight if you're intending to call others out on ethics. Seeing as it's your 2nd post you're an ass 1/2 the time, so how about I help you move on.