Discussion in 'Watercraft' started by Tschu, Jan 6, 2012.
Jacks plastics made in USA .. period!
Not out to bash anyone's product, but I bought a 14'set of Maxxon tubes & I'm happy with them. There was a couple of tears/rips/splits in the fabric of one tube, but they sent me enough fabric to patch those, and many more if there is ever another problem. I just need to figure out what he said about using to glue the patches with, & where I can get it for the least amount of $ moolah.
Then come spring I'm hoping to have enough $ to make another trip to my SIl's place in northeastern Alabama, & get some of those big old Lg mouth, striper's & crappie, to fill a couple of coolers & have a big old fish fry. My wife & her lil' Sis are some of the best cooks around, when it comes to southern eatin'!
Blue, I know that you are constantly bragging up Scadden on here and that is fine, but they are in no way even near the top of the pontoon market. If you did a little research you could educate yourself to see what a really good pontoon is without just rehearsing the same story with Scadden.
As mentioned, Jack's Plastics is a quality US made pontoon that Scadden can't touch. Others are Maravia, Sotar and even NRS pontoons (though not all make smaller pontoons). Scadden has (or at least had on some models) bladder pontoons, which I would stay away from except for the Aire products.
As far as why, start with materials and how they are put together. The type, material, and processing for putting the seams together all go a long way in determining the quality of pontoon. Some of the better materials come from Germany and US, although some of the environmental laws passed in the US has made it more difficult to manufacture here. As you might have guessed, imported material from eastern Asia is not as good. And I'm being honest because we use some of that in our boats.
I'm not totally dissing on Scadden products as he has found/created a nice marketing niche for the one step above the big box store boats but anybody who knows anything about the pontoon world will agree with me that he is not even close to being the top end in the pontoon world.
With all that said, there is no reason why you are anybody else can't be satisfied with Scadden or any other dealer out there.
In the real world of every day fishing with the possibility of floating some white water, yes I have done research. That would be the world of Outcast, Bucks Bags, Watermaster,Classic Acc., Creek Co., not the hard core class V white water you are referring to. Yes I concider them top. And yes I have own most of the above mentioned.
Plus my research took me to boat shows that several of these are presented at.
Now throw in the mix, a well made boat that ONE can pick-up and move plus a price range that is acceptable, yes I am talking top of the pontoon chain.
You know your stuff and you told me good, but I really think we are talking Apples and Oranges.
Lastly, the post is about Scadden, so yes I answered and yes I brag them up, just like you do about what you like.
You did ask the question however, and I responded with an honest answer.
Yes, you are correct in that we are talking apples and oranges because the difference in our respective definitions of "top of the line" is so great, that they can't even be compared.
Since you re-stated your definition of "everyday fishing with some whitewater" and "one that can be picked up and moved with an acceptable price", well that statement is more realistic.
I've got a Scadden Skykomish that I picked up at the Portland show when they first came out. I love the pontoon but even more so love the way Dave Scadden handles his business. About a week after buying mine I stopped at the bank machine on my way out of town to fish. To my amazement, I was about $900 short of what should be there and still had a number of bills that had yet to clear. Ended up getting charged twice for my toon, it's good but not that good. Called their office and spoke with a receptionist that couldn't do anything for me at the end of the workday on Friday. I explained to her that I was headed out of town to use my new pontoon for the first time and without sufficiant funds would be forced to head home. Slight exageration on my end but I was a little angry. Within the hour, Dave Scadden called me up and offered to wire me whatever cash it would take to get me on the water for the weekend. I kindly passed on his offer and explained that I'd be fine and was just happy to know that it was as big a deal to him as it was me. By Monday afternoon the $$ was back in my account and that Friday some goodies from Dave arrived in the mail. I think he puts out a quality water craft and it would tough to find someone in his position that would handle an issue like he did. I don't think you can go wrong with the purchase of a Scadden product.
To all the guys that have a sadden. How the hell did you get one. I am in Alaska and have called and wrote multiple email to try and buy a few for my buddies and I. No call back or emails returned. Customer service is horrible
I have emailed and called. Both ways got me in touch with Dave. Email took longer when he was on the travelling show schedule. Send them an email stating your intent to drop some $$ for some boatage and see what they say. The first time I spoke to Dave was 20 minutes after sending a detailed message of what I was intending to by, accessories I would want included in the package deal and how soon I needed it to make an upcoming fishing trip. Seriously, 20 minutes later my phone rang and we hammered out all the details.
What are you looking for? If it is something that we have, you pay the shipping and we'll send it up. You don't like it, send it back, no questions asked. If it is something we don't have, maybe we can design and build it?
A little reality check,
The scadden boats are not for whitewater, but for flat or nearly so rivers for fishing in my opinion after looking over this things in great detail.
Even most whitewater rowers rairly if ever actually run Class V. Class IV to IV+ is generally pretty knarly whitewater. Class III to III+ are usually fairly big rapids. This is big water class IV+ with big consequences (Cable Rapid, Owyhee)
This is lowish water class III with consequences (Whistling Bird, Owyhee)
I consider myself a very compitent IV+ rower, and I sure as hell wouldn't be running the supposedly "class V rated by the man himself" scadden tinker toys through Cable. I can tell you that some guys lost some of these not so capable craft on the Lower Owyhee (upstream of the reservoir) this year when they got into trouble.
To the scadden owners that claim to run class III and IV with these craft, It would be great to have some more info, what river, what class III and IV rapid have you run, and photos or vids of such feets of skill would be great!
Shapp, you know I'm a novice on the sticks. I like to row, I like to fish. I go down rivers that allow me to do both. I don't know what they are rated, likely the sketchiest stuff is II+ to III for me in my 14' NRS framed, Maxxon tubed cataraft, Scadden Assault or Guide. I've though about going to 16' Maxxons for some "bigger water" but gnarly whitewater is not really what I'm looking for. I'm a fly fisherman that likes to use an inflatable boat to get from here to there. I've got some whitewater friends that want to show me more than I'm currently ready for, intrigued, but for fishing the Scadden crafts are fine, just like many others. I'm not sure where I saw that the original request was about gnarly whitewater and scadden boats.
Again, unsure how the Yakima, Satsop, Wynoochee, Kalama, Klickitat, Skykomish, Snohomish, Bogachiel and Hoh are rated in various runs, but I've floated and fished these and will do it again. There is moving water, splashy water, boulders, some drops and foamy stuff that seems to meet the definition of white water. I doubt that much if any of it would be considered gnarly. My Maxxon, Outcast, BMI and Scadden crafts have all done well for me in these outings.
A very good friend used to be a whitewater kayak guide. He's got me jonesing to take my 14' cat down a few places where there are Class III and III+ sections, short sections. Between them are lightly pressured prime fishing areas. I'd like to develop the skill to take my fishing capable and class capable craft there, for the fun of the run, but mostly for the fishing in between.
Exactly, Ed, take your 14' cat, but please don't anyone buy one of these things thinking they are really anything more than I to II+ cabable craft. Just responding to statements in this thread about running IV to IV+ using scaddens, like phsycos post (maybe the name says it all). Happy boating
I have run class iv in my scadden rampage but I would not give any sort of endorsement to Dave Scadden boats. Running any real water in this boat is very dangerous as you never know what is going to break next. I have been very disappointed with his product. I paid good money for it and expected much more. I guess that's what you get when you buy something without actually seeing it up close first. The oars are garbage and break under little or no force. Absolutely unacceptable for any moving water use. I have also broke 2 bags, 2 seats and I have been patching this boat like mad in areas where the PVC takes a hard corner when deflated. Not much help from scadden on this. 2 weeks ago I broke an oarlock (at least a sad excuse for one) on a fast river with no real whitewater. I have 2 buddies with scaddens as well and they have the same experience. Leaking valves, broken seats, broken footbars, broken supports. It's really unfortunate that they put out such junk. The boat design is actually pretty good. It's nice to fish out of and is a great way to get down a river (except for the fact that everything breaks). I litterally have nothing left on my boat to break or have problems with. I have been forced to make a bunch of modifications to the boat as Dave Scadden isn't much help and just says, "Wow, we've never had anything like that happen." He told my 2 buddies that too. All I can say, is be very carefull when you look at buying one of these boats. If you want to use it on lakes and flat water, it may work out for you. But then it's way over priced for such limited use. If you plan to use it on moving water (not just technical white water) plan to throw away almost everything that comes with the boat, buy new oars, figure out a way to put real oarlocks on it and plan to keep the contact cement flowing for patches. I am always surprised when I hear of people with good experiences with these boats because our three boats have all been garbage. I hope people don't have the same troubles we have. But its sad because most people I've talke to who have one have had troubles. Be very careful with spending your hard earned money on this product.
The reason stuff is always breaking is after seeing them in person I would have to say these are definitely a Chinese made product. Dave swears they are made in Idaho but there is no way you would order those cheap Chinese parts to have it built here. The glue all over the seams and plastic end cones kind of gives it away. If it was made here he would never be able to discount that boat so heavily when you call for his special deal. You can't even buy the material for what he sells them for.
For mumbles " so you are saying if you call Dave and say I have money he will answer the phone, if you need something you can't get hold of him". Doesn't give one much confidence to buy if you have to trick him into answering the phone by saying I have a fist full of cash!
I remember seeing something on this forum one of the members found proof he was importing but it looks like any traces of that post has been erased?
scaddens boats are made by incept marine in new zealand. http://www.incept.co.nz/ Incept welds all of their pvc boats
They even sell them there as scadden boats. The Scadden frames were made by the same builder that makes outcast frames.
Who knows who makes them now. These boats are a great boat for the average guy that wants a boat to use 3 to 5 times a year that wants a boat that does it all. Could you run blossom bar? Sure if you were a skilled rower and upgraded all the oar locks and oars and such. If you want good whitewater capable raft or Cat you need to drop 2500 to 5000 grand on a boat and even then those boats break.
Read what I typed. Don't make it into something you want it to say. I like the boats. They have served me well. I have had a few issues with customer service as well. I'm not a Scadden apologist, but his boats have worked well for me. Light, easy to set up, withstood my abuse and that is all I can say. I merely related a story of me sending him a message of what I wanted to buy and what accessories I needed. He quickly called me back. I think his office staff lack the ability to make a decision, so that means you may have to wait for Dave to get back from a show to make the call.
If you see photos of my boats in use, you'll find that I use cataract or sawyer oars, not the ones Dave makes/buys/sells as his own brand. I have no ideaa where these things are made.
I once said that if you wanted a quality boat and knew you may have difficulty with customer service but the boat would be still worth having, but one. I did. I have a single seater, two seater and three seater.
Manipulate those words to read how you wish them to read, or read them as I've offered them as my own personal input. Nothing more.
And another note, my NRS retro frame fits my Maxxons (of course) but also fits my Scadden Guide 3 person "toons". When I use these tubes I use my NRS frame because I have modified it to my liking and I prefer the NRS frame. There is no perfect boat, no matter who builds it, what they build it out of and where they build it. The question is, will the boat you buy suit you for your needs? Be sure it will, or don't buy it and then fuss about it being a piece of crap. If you can't buy it before seeing it first, consider waiting until you can see it.
That is very interesting. I made a call to NFO yesterday to find out more about them and the origins of their products. I was told that only Mr. Scadden knows where they are made, not even any of the employees know.
I don't really consider NFO our competition as we are no threat to them. I imagine he sells more boat packages at a big outdoor show in a week than we do all year. But I called out of curiosity, because of all the internet smack talk and rumors that have been flying around for years. I would have liked to know the skinny on whether they are US made or not but apparently it is a secret because even their employees don't know.
I won't talk smack about their stuff as we don't play that game. They have some interesting and unique products. But in a side by side comparison on similar products; well, I really don't think there is a comparison regarding quality, durability, and customer service.
You pretty much got your answer. If they were made in the USA it wouldn't be a secret!
And the new rockerraft boats he has are not incept and not heat welded. They are of Chinese origin.
They definitely are glued on the front of the tubes near the cone, I saw it slopped all over. Although I haven't heard of any seam failures yet. The new glue process is supposed to be way better than that of the old days.
It is kind of a neat design. Just garbage outfitting.