Scadden Renegade Under Power

Discussion in 'Watercraft' started by LCnSac, Mar 10, 2012.

  1. LCnSac Active Member

    Posts: 515
    Sacramento, CA
    Ratings: +115 / 1
    Finally got everything rigged for an electric and took it out today.

    [IMG]

    The motor I used for the first trial was a 27# Minn Kota. I have a 17, 27, and 55. The 27 actually worked very well. The first speed is slow enough for trolling (come on, we all do it sometimes) if you're moving against the wind. The fastest speed was perfect from getting from dead water on the lake to shelves and structure a few hundred yards away, but would be slow for actually moving to another section of a larger lake. Running up a river or to move around, a 40-55# would be excellent, but you won't be trolling flies as the first speed will be way too fast.

    The motor's power head was reversed as to pull the boat, not push it. Blue is completely correct when she says if you move forward you will have water spilling into your seat. It's slow and not really an option. You move with the U-shape forward, same as rowing or kicking.

    What impressed me most, other than that the initial rigging was absolutely perfect, was how easy it is to steer with your fins. I didn't touch the motor for an hour. It tracks well and steering with fins is effortless and very easy and effective. The Scadden motor mount was fine. I'm not sure how adequate it would be for a gasser.

    The motor was a great addition, especially in 10 kt. winds today. The additional weight from the Group 24 battery and motor had no apparent affect on displacement or performance. I'm totally sold on this setup.
    Blue likes this.
  2. Panther Member

    Posts: 33
    Dixon, CA
    Ratings: +4 / 0
    LCnSac,

    Thanks a lot for the report. I just received my Renegade a couple of days ago. I am going to try it first with just the oars and no motor. But I am keeping all options open, and it's good to know how it does with an electric.

    Panther
  3. LCnSac Active Member

    Posts: 515
    Sacramento, CA
    Ratings: +115 / 1
    The motor is a luxury, not a necessity, in the Renegade in still water, but it is NICE. Once you get it rigged, it's really no bother except it makes the 'toon non-packable due to having to lug the battery around. I can still inflate and rig in about 5 minutes. If you deal with current or strong tides in rivers, or if you want to make a round trip on same, you'll probably end up with some form of power.

    I don't know if I'd get Scadden's motor mount. I'm going to try to fabricate a deck with cam straps for the Renegade where I can put a larger cooler, some rod holders, the battery, and a motor mount. His portable mount is fine but the Rene deck is a little small.
  4. Wayne Member

    Posts: 36
    Lethbridge, Alberta
    Ratings: +3 / 0
    Any chance you did or could use a gps to compare top speed between the
    27lb and the 55lb motors. I am going to purchase a motor for my assault but would like to know how much faster the 55lb would be. There is a huge cost difference between the two motors
  5. LCnSac Active Member

    Posts: 515
    Sacramento, CA
    Ratings: +115 / 1
    My GPS is built into my sonor which is in pieces (salvaged it from my totaled Whaler) and I haven't got it hooked up yet. All i can do, and I will soon, is give an anecdotal comparison between the two. Depending upon your needs my guess is that a 30# is minimum and the 55# is going to be overkill. I think Scadden recommends a 40# which feels about right. My 55# is gawd awful heavy in comparison too. If I were to buy blind I would get a 45# Traxxis (the Maximizer feature is a must IMO)*, shortest shaft available. Bass Pro has them for $219. I've heard the 3 blade prop is a worthwhile addition.

    * The battery was at 95% when I started out yesterday. I was out for over 4 hours and was using all speeds about 80% of the time. I just threw it on the charger and it reads 75%. That is what the Maximizer does for you. Without it, the percentage would be much less. This is a very old 2007 battery too, from Walmart.
  6. IveofIone Active Member

    Posts: 3,051
    .
    Ratings: +1,064 / 0
    That Group 24 is a ball breaker! I am using a gel cell wheelchair battery on my South Fork and my pram and it only weighs a little over 20#. I get a full days fishing out of it every time out but I only use it on stillwater. Last fall I spent a whole day cruising around Coffepot on it and that is a pretty big lake. Since it only weighs about 1/3 of what a Group 24 does I figured that if the longevity wasn't enough I would just buy another battery and carry it along since it is so small. But I have never needed it. No acid to spill, you can run it in any position and taking it in and out of the boat is light duty. The motor it is driving is a Minn Kota 30# thrust with the short shaft and no Optimizer. My fins and oars are the optimizer.

    Unless you are going somewhere like the far end of Coldwater Lake and then having to power back to the launch against the wind it seems like the big battery is just overkill on an inflateable. A 55# motor will push a 16' driftboat loaded with two guys and their gear so that too is probably overkill. Thrust does not translate to HP and Minn Kota says all of their motors are only designed to push a boat up to about 5-6 mph. So bigger doesn't mean faster, it just means faster battery drain.

    Ive
  7. Blue Active Member

    Posts: 1,143
    Salt Lake City, UT
    Ratings: +103 / 0
    I use the #27 battery. Always have. Heavy, yes, but only the trip to the water and back. Spill, never, knock on wood and I have been using these batteries for over 20 years on a donut even (float Power). Would I use one of those Gel batteries, you bet, but to get one equal to the #27 I use, the weight is real close, and the price is 3X as much.
    I use a Maxxum 40 Min and I can get two days using the lower speeds on the battery.
    I don't know if bigger means mre drain though. I am an idiot on that stuff, but I can tell you from experience, I have a Minn 30. I had to run it on 2 or 3 to move my X5. On my Cardiac Canyon it was a perfect motor, but you are talking two 11 1/2' 12 in diameter pontoons.
    I fee it is very underpowered for my X5 and my Renegade although it moves the Reny better. Thus having to run it on 2 or 3 ate up the battery. The Max is 10%, 20% so on. I run it most time on about 15% and holds me in good winds or moves me from point A to B. I can get two 7 hour days out of one charge and probably more, but that is when I charge usually. And ALWAYS a Deep Cycle.

    I would think a 30 would be fine on the Assault. Smaller boat than the Renagade. Better to have too much top end then not enough. I have had many trips I have been airborne trying to get back to shore.
  8. LCnSac Active Member

    Posts: 515
    Sacramento, CA
    Ratings: +115 / 1
    Agreed not only on price, but on weight. Gel Cells are being replaced by AGM batteries. To get to what I have now, 115 amp hours, there is about 6 lbs difference in weight. If you run on the highest speed, that will draw about 40 amps per hour so you'll have less than three hours. Obviously we rarely do that, but I would not be interested in smaller capacity.

    When I had a pontoon with about the same (little less) capacity as a South Fork I used a wheelchair battery. The Group 24 would have practically flipped it. With an 800 lb. capacity the battery weight becomes less important on the Rene.

    Another thing I noticed--the newer Minn Kota motors are MUCH lighter. West Marine had a 55# that felt about the same as my 27#. My 55# Maxxum is a freaking beast. I assume it has more metal and is probably a superior motor but I think I'm going to off that one as it's never been in the water and get a slightly smaller and much lighter motor.
  9. Wayne Member

    Posts: 36
    Lethbridge, Alberta
    Ratings: +3 / 0
    So from what I understand electric trolling motors have a top speed of 6mph. So my question is what is the smallest motor that would still reach top speed in a outlaw assault with 350lb's of cargo, this includes me, fishing gear, cooler, motor and battery.
    Would a bigger motor be able to maintain max speed in wind/waves?
    Thanks wayne
  10. Blue Active Member

    Posts: 1,143
    Salt Lake City, UT
    Ratings: +103 / 0
    I don't have speed on my boat, but I do fly if I turn the power up. I mentioned the Maxxum 49, but I also bought a Minn 45. The Maxxum was about twice as much money and is a quality motor (although now discontinued) The 45 has the 1,2,3 reverse and 1,2,3,4,5 Forward. One thing strange, the prop is a lot smaller that the 40. Looking around, I don't think that I can put a larger prop on the 45 without hurting it.
    Anyway, my suggestion for the Assault is 40 or 45. I will know more this spring.
  11. LCnSac Active Member

    Posts: 515
    Sacramento, CA
    Ratings: +115 / 1
    Wayne I will make an effort to try the 55# this week on my Renegade and give you a report, but I know that motor is more than you or I need. Consider this: You are setting this up in a highly inefficient manner and you will first reverse the powerhead so the motor is pulling you backwards while using forward speeds. Reverse in electrics is something you don't use much as it's very inefficient. Even with the two U-shapes on your Assault I think (Blue can confirm this as they have an Assault XX), you will still be running backwards. Your weight is two to three feet from the motor, thus you have no chance of getting a lot of extra speed with more thrust. If you had a 300# thrust motor you still would essentially be plowing the water because of the weight distribution. This is why people with frames reverse them, sit in the front and run facing the U-shape. With that you can get some speed although probably no more than 5-6 mph with an electric. Down here Scadden was doing a video and had a good sized (25 HP I think) Yami on an X5 and my friend guiding him said he got up to almost 35 MPH!. The video failed because the winds were too high and this guy said it was crazy going that fast but fun.

    Next thing to look at is amp draws. For a rough rule of thumb, estimate about 1 amp draw per hour per pound of thrust at full speed. Thus, a 40# motor would draw about 40 amps per hour at full speed. Your running time is estimated by dividing your battery amp hours by the draw, so in my case with a 40# thrust motor and a 115 amp hour battery, I'd get a little less than three hours at full speed. The Maximizer feature is only useful at lower speeds. At full speed your are drawing the full load either with or without the electronic pulsing of the Maximizer. You don't want to run at full speed. It really sucks the battery down quickly.

    When shopping price, be sure to compare between the Endura which does not have the Maximizer to the Traxxis which does, except for a couple of models. The one I quoted you for $220 does not have it upon further reading; to get it you'll spend another $100 or so.

    I think your range of acceptability is between the 30 and 45. There's a $100 difference between the two for the Endura, and for the Traxxis with the Maximizer the #45 (the smallest available) it's $330--without it the 45# is $220. That's only about $100, and I'm pretty sure Blue would agree that you absolutely cannot go wrong with the 45# motor. Granted the 30# is only $115 but based on my 27# results which have to be similar, I think you should bump it up to the 45# although the 30# will work--you just won't be going very fast but will move at trolling speed at the lowest level.

    If you plan to only use it intermittently for positioning and minor moving around in still water, I promise you the 30# will work if you don't care about moving more than a few hundred yards at a time. If you plan to use it in wind or against current or plan to move a mile or two at a time I think the 45# is the better choice. I think spending at the most $200 more upfront for a motor that gives you more than enough reserve power, the Maximizer, variable speed, and an easy tilting method is something you would not regret, however.

    If you're still conflicted, pick up a used 30 and try it. You can get them for under $100. If you don't like it, sell it. You might lose $10 or gain a couple of bucks. They are all over Craigslist. People upgrade, change boats, etc. I have a 17, 27, and 55. They all have different uses. I'm going to motorize my daughter's Fat Cat with the 17 just to stop her gripping about "all that work kicking."

    Note: The Traxxis has replaced the Maxxum so consider them the same, essentially.
  12. Wayne Member

    Posts: 36
    Lethbridge, Alberta
    Ratings: +3 / 0
    That would be great. I have narrowed it down I will be purchasing either the traxxis 45 or the traxxis 55 both with the maximizer (variable speed) there is a $70 price difference between the two. Is the 55 overkill or will I second guess myself if I settle for the 45?
  13. Blue Active Member

    Posts: 1,143
    Salt Lake City, UT
    Ratings: +103 / 0
    Might be just me, and remember we run a 5 HP gas, but I don't think there is overkill. I knew a Guy once that ran one of those wireless remote bow mounts on a Skylomish. I do think you can under power though.
  14. LCnSac Active Member

    Posts: 515
    Sacramento, CA
    Ratings: +115 / 1
    Go with the 45#. I'll bet you couldn't tell the difference, and Scadden recommends the 40 for the larger Rampage so you're more than good. You're doing the right thing, Wayne. Cry once at first at the $$, not later at the lack of capabilities. The variable speed gives you more options for use, and the Maximizer will keep you out a lot longer.

    There is one concern, after reading the specs on the Traxxis. It has what appears to be a neat feature where you can tilt the motor just by pulling on the head instead of pushing a lever which is what most of us have to do and it's not convenient on these pontoons. But..I read somewhere that in reverse the motor kicks up with this feature. You will be reversing the power head, so in effect you will always be running in reverse as far as prop and shaft positioning. I would call Minn Kota and ask them about that feature with the power head reversed. You might have to disengage that feature, but you should know any gotchas before you buy. Please report back what they tell you.

    Edit: Blue and I cross posted. She has more experience with the pontoons than I. I have a hard time believing the 45# would not be adequate, but she may be right. I totally trust her experience.
  15. Blue Active Member

    Posts: 1,143
    Salt Lake City, UT
    Ratings: +103 / 0
    Oh I agree LC. 45 is great, but I don't think 55 would be overkill. That's all. As far as the kick up, I am assuming you mean when you crank it on the highest power. I have noticed this when I have wanted to get somewhere fast. It does kick up a little. It isn't going anywhere though. Mounting the same motor on the front of a pontoon with the prop facing the oposite of the handle, it will kick up also when cranked up. I am not sure it makes any difference. Having the motor in fron of you, it is pushing, but turning the head and mounting behind doesn't change the push/pull or forward funtion, just makes it easier to reach. We have Minn 30's that we took the heads off completely and added wire ribbon making it now have the speed and on/off anywhere on the boat.
    [IMG]
  16. LCnSac Active Member

    Posts: 515
    Sacramento, CA
    Ratings: +115 / 1
    You guys crack me up. You're worse than I am. You're never happy unless you're screwing around with stuff;-) I think your hand control system is great. Did you make the potentiometer/speed control box or replace the electronics from the head? I guess steering isn't very important to you....;-) Actually you don't need it in these boats for the most part.
  17. Blue Active Member

    Posts: 1,143
    Salt Lake City, UT
    Ratings: +103 / 0
    I never turn the motor, just steer with feet. AND I found out through laps of memory and forgetting to pack fins, that you can steer with JUST your feet.
    On this motor, we just removed the control (I guess the reo-stat)from the head. I bought a metal box and a big radio know at Radio Shack. Glued the control in the metal box and notched where each click was, then made a label. The wire ribbon had like 5 wires in it. I don't think this is possible with the Maxis. Maybe, but haven't really looked into it.
    This was nice because if you needed to chase or a quick stop, the control was right next to me. No reaching back.
  18. gofish101 Member

    Posts: 47
    BC
    Ratings: +12 / 0
    I have read that gel cels are more finicky to charge and that agm's don't like to be fully discharged. Can anyone comment on the true benefits and disadvantages of each. By the way I am a newbie, so be gentle. I have a Traxxis 36 with maximizer I got from a big box store in BC and used a 35Ah wet cell on a ODC and got about 6 hours. I have just bought a Skylomish and was thinking of replacing the battery with a 40Ah or 50Ah to last the day.
  19. LCnSac Active Member

    Posts: 515
    Sacramento, CA
    Ratings: +115 / 1
    I have no direct experience with anything but a conventional lead plate battery. Gel cells are being phased out. There's really no weight advantage to any of the three given the same capacities. The two big advantages of the AGM batteries are no spill and they can sit longer discharged. I had my Walmart deep cycle discharged for a year and it charged up fine. I have no intention of paying double or more for negligible benefits. My opinion only. I'd go with close to 100 AH so you can run all day at speeds you choose and not worry. I have 115 AH--seems ample--but your amps can get chewed up in wind.
  20. mojo Member

    Posts: 109
    Yewtah
    Ratings: +2 / 0
    If I remember correctly, gel cell batteries need a special charger. They have to charge slowly. A regular charger will destroy them.
    AGM's are cool because THEY WON'T FREEZE (in most conditions) like an lead acid battery will. They'll take more abuse than a gell cell. They're about the same price and they're a little lighter. Like LCnSac mentions, they can sit on the shelf for a long time- little draw down. Something like 1-3% a month is all. And you don't need a special charger.
    Biggest drawback $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
    FWIW, the new Minnkota's with the maximizer setup. PURE GOLD. Unbelievable stinginess when it comes to battery drain.