Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by Jason Rolfe, Oct 24, 2008.
Fox News is still reporting "MISSION ACCOMPLISHED"...
The intelligent discussion in this thread has been fun to read, lets keep it that way, no personal attacks please.
I can't believe I read the whole thing.
Lots of good input.
Something I don't understand is if a bunch of fly fishers can figure things out what happened to our (We the people) goverment.
509 &Alex- I'll respectfully disagree that we've done well with Iraq. I'll also point out that we never went there on good will, but on the false pretense of finding WMD's. I'm not sure why we thought/think a democracy in that region would work anyhow, they've never know one. (I'm basing my observation from texts like D. Fromkins a Peace to End All Peace http://www.powells.com/biblio/17-0805068848-0 etc.)
In regards to African aid, again I'm not sure of your source of info or your definition of 'well' but there is much more we could do, or atleast do differently. I've been able to see economist Jeffrey Sachs talk a few times ( another book plug here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_End_of_Poverty) and can say that we'd be better off spending our money investing in sustainable agriculture, as well as other things, instead of just dropping pallets of dry goods in the desert regions.
Alex- I was thinking a bit more last night about your comments on civility in society, and though I agree people should be more respectful, it's an unreasonable expectation as we're not that society any longer. We're all about the drive-over-the-top-of-you, flip ya off, smart ass culture now. Look at the old film clips of W. Buckley ( one of my other posts) he's a conservative, and can, for the most part, get his point across without loosing self control. Compare that to todays politicians and media celebrities, essentially our modern examples of how to act (maybe not for you and I but for many of the sheep) . Does GWB, Cheney, Limbaugh, or O'Riley congure up any idea of a thoughtful respectful person?
FF: My pick is Obama will win Washington state easliy, and that Gregoire will probably eek out another win.
It is with great regret, as a history major, to agree with Ford Fenders. I believe that whomever is elected our country will be in a better place in time. That being said I fear that if history is made that there could be some crackpot that dedicates their existence to altering history by their own hand. On the ticket of change Obama and Biden, how can Biden be anything of change after 35 years in office. If any of those radical crackpots have their way we will see a historic election turn into a historical tragic act that puts Biden in charge. If Obama wins, I personally will pray that our nation is strong enough to stand strong for our Commander in Chief and keep him safe and healthy so that he can be effecive. If McCain wins I do not fear the same outcome, even though I don't have much faith in Palin. History repeats itself and genearlly that repetition is not a good thing.
I just voted. That is for real, not on WFF. I am proud to vote for the candidate that I did. I am confident that he has all the nessesary talents, education, demeanor and intellectual curiosity. We certainly haven't had that in a President in a while.
Pro- I-1000 as well.
what i'm more concerned with is not necessarily obama or mccain on their own, but the CFR (Council on Foreign Relations). i won't go into detail on here, but you can research that if you feel inclined to. just do a search on Obama and the CFR via google or what have you
A little Intellectual Honesty would go a long way though.
My Dad was a strong Union Member and lifelong Democrat. Until he retired. He hasn't voted for a Democrat sense.
It all depends on who butters your bread.
So what's the issue? Please don't spout off the same old conspiracy theories. Fact: the CFR is a think tank. Fact: because it's a think tank ALL ideas are on the table (that is a good thing for a think tank). Fact: sometimes some of the more extreme ideas get leaked (do you honestly think we would ever, as americans, as soverign nations, stand for a one world government or a single government in north america, etc....c'mon, we can even elect a president in this country without the courts getting involved anymore. Do you think this new government will come about via force...seriously?).
It is a non-partisan orginization that bats around ideas some of which I'm sure are extreme (to the left, right, rightcenter, leftcenter, etc.) That is what a think tank should do, it doesn't mean those ideas would ever be put into action. You know how many former government officials (pretty much every president, secratary of state , etc.,.....ever are members or are linked to the cfr (including Obama and McCain).
The world is changing-culture, government, and nations are not static entities. You have to think ahead of the curve and out of the box (sorry for the cliches...) in order to be prepared for what lies ahead. Think tanks do this type of work so it is only natural that some crazy sounding sh*t has come out of there.
No, I'm sure that they're focused on Acorn... not that I can watch those _________! (I'll let you fill in your favorite four letter word..)
Really? :beathead::beathead: Well, by what standard? Sorry, couldn't resist...
I think I'll pass, but feel free to expand on it if you feel like it. Nothing is going to change my mind on this election...
All I know is that every Democrat I know is going to get out to vote, even if I have to drive them to their polling place! :thumb:
But if it's on the internet it has to be true!
i'm not debating the issue on here. i didn't say all the "conspiracy theories" about the CFR are fact, but a lot of things about it concern me, that's all I was getting at. if people want to check into it on their own, have at it, if not, that's awesome too. i personally enjoy looking into all the possibilities and coming to my conclusions in the gray area somewhere. i know a lot of what i believe about politics could be considered "out there," but i spend a lot of time researching the topics, and have since i was in college getting formal education on government and politics. i think more americans need to look into all aspects of what's going on, and even entertain some of the more seemingly outlandish ideas.
David Rockefeller (powerful CFR member) said in his Book memoirs
"Some even believe we are part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the United States, characterizing my family and me as internationalists and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global political and economic structure - one world, if you will. If that's the charge, I stand guilty, and I am proud of it."
edit: I believe very strongly in the national sovereignty of the United States. therefore anything pertaining to the issue of our national sovereignty, i'm going to be passionate about. I am not at all a believer in the "we're invincible, nothing bad will happen to us, we're immortal as a nation" mentality.
My 3rd grade class held our election and the results were:
They have correctly called the last four elections.
4 years running, that's impressive, they could probably be cnn analysts!
The "Right wingers" don't have anything to worry about as far as the Supreme Court is concerned over the next 4 years, if Obama is elected, and probably over the next 8 years if he repeats. The reason is that the activist conservative judges on the court that have shifted the balance far off its keel are the youngest members. The ones most likely to be replaced during coming administrations are the moderates (there really are no "liberal" judges left on the court at this time). It is unlikely that Obama would nominate a true liberal to the Court, thus the most the right wingers have to worry about is maintenance of the status quo for quite a long time, since none of the conservative gang of four are likely to retire any time soon. In contrast, if McCain were elected, we could see a significant shift in the court that could persist for decades.
In all of the discussions of Obama's experience and qualities as they pertain to his prospective ability to be president, one is all too often neglected, in my mind. He spent 12 years teaching constitutional law at the University of Chicago Law School. The U Chicago law school is one of the most conservative of the top law schools in the US. I suspect this bodes well for him nominating respected, qualified judges to the Supreme Court, rather than partisan judges who use their power on the Supreme Court to reverse precedent in order to push the ideology for which they were selected (as in the case of judges nominated by George W. Bush). Oh, that we had someone with an understanding and respect for the constitution in the white house these past 8 years.
Don't try to second guess, or intellectualize everything you hear a candidate say. Just listen seriously, with your mind and your heart. Listen to what is said and the value that you place upon what each candidate actually says. And do not be afraid to sign on to the responsibility to get our country back on track for a successful move into the next decade or two. We've been in these dire situations before and will be again. I've survived a couple such situations myself. We do not, however have to stay the course on a sinking ship that remains true to the ideology that paying taxes to live in this country is a dirty deal. It is a priveledge that we should all be proud to be a part of.
Thanks for those observations Les. I have always been amazed at how opposed people are to paying income taxes. Everyone seems to expect water to come out when they turn on a faucet, lights to come on when they flip a switch, the road to work to be free of potholes, parks in place for their cross country trips, the garbage to be picked up, police to come when called, the fire department to show up in case of fire and so on. It is as though none of us has ever been to another country where none of these things are taken for granted. Those that still have jobs should just quit whining about how much they have to pay to live good in this country and be grateful. You can bet that there are many thousands of people who have lost their jobs in the past few weeks who would gladly swap places with someone who is getting a real pay stub but still crying about how they are overtaxed.
When I was working for a big Fortune 500 company the ones that complained the most seemed to be the highest wage earners. If you believed them they were on the verge of financial ruin because they had to cough up a little tax. Never mind that they were living in tract mansions and had vacation homes or luxury cars, airplanes or boats. There was always money for big screen TVs or a winter trip to Hawaii or perhaps $10,000 charged to Nordstroms. Still the refrain was: "This government/these taxes are strangling me". What was really strangling them was living on $150,000 a year when they only made $100,000.
I agree that paying taxes is a privilege. It is how we finance our infrastructure and provide social programs that separate our way of life from that in third world countries. Sure, the government pisses a lot of it away but we are the government-we have sent those guys to Washington so some of their folly was done on our watch. Just live within your means,folks, and those taxes will amount to no more than mouse nuts.
Well, I hope and pray that McCain, not Obama, will win. Obama's a politician who makes my skin crawl! Waayyyy to many inconsistencies and questions against him, and one particular side of him, his disdain for the Second Amendment, really sets my hair on end. What he claims, and what he's done aren't even close there, and since I've seen what a government can do to people who have no means to defend themselves, that's probably my biggest button. I don't like being forced to pay taxes for crap: it's robbery, not a privilege. I'm not on social security, and don't have to worry about coming up short each month, but dammit, I want good roads, good bridges, security of my property and person, and that's about it. Democrats have been throwing my money into the war on poverty for over 50 years, and guess what? Hasn't made a single dent! Give me something for my money, don't just ask for more!
M. Le Constructeur, you (generic "you") don't know about WMD-none of us do! We know Saddam had them, and used them on his Kurdish population-that's an established fact. However, Bush may well have had intel that's not even close to surfacing, no matter what the press tells you. There's stuff which goes on in special ops that NOBODY knows! Here's an example; our group, Studies and Operations Group-Military Assistance Command, Vietnam, also had ops going in mainland China during the Vietnam war-betcha didn't know that one! A Presidential Unit Commendation was only issued for that a couple of years ago. So there may well have been intel that the press hasn't seen at all, that prompted Bush to send in the troops. The Mossad certainly had better intel than we did, but we may never know. Not that I'm defending the invasion. I'd have cleaned up the Afgans completely before I left. Actually, if I'd been in charge, I'd have pushed the button, waited about 32 minutes, dusted off my hands and issued a statement about Osama bin Fallout, and that would have been that.
sales taxes, gas taxes, property taxes, excise taxes, and other such taxes fund our infrastructure. income tax does not. i don't believe the income tax to be a necessary tax (from my studies).. but here i go on another issue that doesn't need to be debated here.. just wanted to chime in again because i have no self control