short rod myth

Discussion in 'Spey Clave' started by Leroy Laviolet, May 15, 2010.

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  1. Leroy Laviolet

    Leroy Laviolet Aint no nookie like chinookie

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    do'n it 4 the chinookie
    Read this again, you gotta be shit'n me - Obviously, you have no clue - But that's ok there is hope, keep reading on this websight and you will learn ! :rofl:




    Bueller,....Bueller.... Anyone, anyone !:rofl::rofl::rofl:
     
  2. Panhandle

    Panhandle Active Member

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    I have no clue, right. You're the one asking the stupid question, I'm just trying to help you out. No one else is.
     
  3. SpeySpaz

    SpeySpaz still an authority on nothing

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    oh for cryin out loud

    little rods don't tangle in the trees so much, the shorter heads let you fish with your ass to the bank, and little fish feel bigger.
    on big water, long rods give you superior line control and mending, better distance, long heads require less strip-strip-stripping...and big sticks make you feel like an uberstud.

    any questions?
     
  4. Dan Page

    Dan Page Active Member

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    For me it' is about using the longest rod I can get away with. I hate all that stripping with short heads on loong casts. Also, that long head flying out is a beautiful thing to watch.
    I suspect many fishermen can't afford a huge quiver of rods and matching lines. They just use what they got. Shorter rods will work on big rivers, but the big rods don't work at all on little rivers.
     
  5. SPEYBUM

    SPEYBUM Member

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    I think most of what has been said has merit.
    I spend most of my fishing time with a 12'3" Zpey rod in the summer and 13'3" in the winter.
    Granted I use Scandinavian Shooting head and Scandinavian Style Casting not to be confusing with all the other styles.
    I still like long bellies and long rods

    !5 years ago the average rod length was 14 to 15 ft .

    And we worked with summer rods and winter rods just the same as we do today.

    But with advent to Bob Meiser building the first switch rod and the development of better and better lines .
    The length of rods have shrunk.
    I have sold two 15 footers the this last year and both of them were bought by advanced casters.
    One was a TCX Sage and other other Zpey both we 15 ft for 10 's.

    Every other rod that I have sold 2009 and so far 2010 have been under 13 ft.

    I would say look at where you are going to be spending most of your time fishing and what you are going to fish for.

    The Truth about the rods is this short the rod the more critical the timing will be and less forgiving,.

    Neither of these are surmountable and can be concur using the Three P ( Practice, Patients and Presents) method of fly casting.

    If you have any more questions let me know how I can be of service,
    :cool:
     
  6. younggun

    younggun New Member

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    I think the advantage to the shorter rod over the longer one has to do with space and compactability. Tight quarters requires a tight stroke, and the short rod allows for that, combined with a short head you can really downsize your stroke and motions, yet be able to cast effective distances with which ever fly you choose from. I match the rod to the water, not to the fish. If anyone has fished the thompson in BC you can see where anything from a 12-16fter can be used because you essentially cant over cast, and yet you then go to the coquihalla and can fish it comfortably with a 9ft single, 10'6 switch, or 11-12ft spey. The short rod theme just allows people to fish places where you usually wouldn't be able to fish previous to the short rod theme. In and around structure, under trees, against high banks, etc... This is my opinion.
     
  7. Leroy Laviolet

    Leroy Laviolet Aint no nookie like chinookie

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    do'n it 4 the chinookie
    Great to see at least Spey bum read the question !! Good on ya Arron-

    Looks to me like the short rod isn't really "better" in many conditions as advertised ... Yet the trend goes to shorter rods, WHY ???

    Actually, I had a 15' greaseliner, makes me a totall idiot correct ?? I can't cast either-bawling:
    Thanks for the help Pan , don't know how I'd make it widout ya bro!

    One last try...

    You are on the Ronde, plenty of room for a backcast, midbelly, 150-175' to the far bank. Why in the hell would you fish a 11' rod over a 14' rod here? What's the advantage?

    Ok, try to stay on track now ... Cummon Brochacho's you can do it !!!:rofl:
     
  8. Leroy Laviolet

    Leroy Laviolet Aint no nookie like chinookie

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    Here's the deal-
    Iv'e noticed the trend to shorter rods and the lack of popularity of the longer rod with the masses if you will-
    My contention is that a longer rod in many cases fishes more effectively than a shorter counterpart , and is easier to deal with once you put in the time to learn it-
    The industry standard seems to rebut this these days-
    I think I know why, do you?
    There is no way a 13' rod is a equal/ better tool on a largeriver than a 15'er . Once again Pan, why don't you explain to all how it is- Enquireing minds want to know how you can cover the water better, mend etc. with a 13' at long distances than you could with a 15'er . You know as well as I those fish are out there, 130'+ . Fine if you want to leave them I'm glad you do , but why not give em a go. I can fish a long rod short, but you can't fish a short rod really long... No way dude-
    I'll fish behind ya and your short rod anyday of the week brotha!:thumb:

    Nobody has answered why on a given river where backcast room is not an issue, or skagit casting isn't eployed, you are a more effiecient fisherman with a shorter rod- Period-
    Untill somebody can say why, I rest my case-:ray1:
    Would love to learn different- Learning is the point, opinions don't learn ya much-
    Facts anyone?



    Ok, so GETCH POPCORN READY !!!
     
  9. younggun

    younggun New Member

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    size of fish?
     
  10. Ed Call

    Ed Call Mumbling Moderator Staff Member

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    Where I can stand and cast relative to the bank, overhang and where I think the fish are? What I have. What I can control, in a can I get it there to fish, perspective? What am I expecting to catch? I can't imagine a 15' rod on the upper Yakima when tossing streamers for 14-22" trout. I also can't imagine a 11' 4wt spey rod on the Hoh in the middle of winter steelhead season. Is this thread going to draw out the particular details of scenarios where a type of angler chooses a type of rod/line delivery system for a particular reason or is it just going to be a pissing contest? I'm eager to learn.
     
  11. KerryS

    KerryS Ignored Member

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    Well, we could take this to the next level and give out word definitions and usages. What you think Ed? Or would the polite thing to say be "Screw You!"?
     
  12. Panhandle

    Panhandle Active Member

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    Holy Hannah, fine.

    I own different lengths and weights of rods and use them accordingly for all the different rivers I fish. Before I purchase the rod I look at the size of fish, the size of the river, what lines I will primarily be using, and even if the river is windy or not. In fact, I own two or three rods for certain rivers that have winters and summers and conditions that change.

    So here I am on the Grand Ronde: I have a 15 ft 8 wt and 12 ft 7 wt. Why don't I use the 14/8? Because it is over- kill. The GR is a small river with small Steelhead (for the most part). A 15 foot rod would have me launching casts over fish and more or less fishing too aggressively on a delicate river. I catch a 6 lb A run and feel little of the fight. I walk away feeling like I man handled the river rather than balancing my equipment with its personality. I think that is what we're all trying to achieve.

    So now I'm on the Clearwater, same rods. I use the 12 footer on a broad run where the fish are holding 80 ft out and I need to get the line under control quick to get the presentation right. The 12 footer is going to do it, but I'm going to work harder than I need to. The 15 footer allows me to get to those fish easier and have more line control quicker. The 15 footer would be the smarter tool for the job.
     
  13. Ed Call

    Ed Call Mumbling Moderator Staff Member

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    Pan, remember, switch rods on smaller rivers beat the winds and deliver streamer madness with ease.
     
  14. Salmo_g

    Salmo_g Active Member

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    Shorter Spey rods have become popular IMO because most steelheaders know that on most, but not all, rivers, fishing effectively doesn't mean casting any farther than they would cast with a single hand rod, and that 15 to 20-plus pound steelhead are incredibly rare. Consequently we can fish for steelhead very effectively with lighter and shorter Spey rods and be more comfortable while doing so. The rivers like the Clearwater and Thompson, where long casts, long line control, and larger average fish size are exceptions to the conditions most steelheaders fish most of the time. It only makes sense that anglers will gravitate to gear that is well suited to the conditions they fish the most.

    I have two handed rods from 11' 6" to 16 feet. Haven't fished the 16' rod in 18 years. It's a thunderstick and really not any fun, and I can be equally if not more effective with other rods I own. I don't use my 9140 for steelhead anymore simply because it's overkill for steelhead under 15 pounds, and most of the steelhead I catch are less than 15 pounds. I will take it to the Kennektok for king salmon next month so I can throw larger flies more comfortably and because the kings are larger average size. I would never take it to the Grand Ronde though, for the relatively short casts and 5 and 6 pound steelhead.

    It ain't rocket science Leroy.

    Sg
     
  15. younggun

    younggun New Member

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    "It aint rocket science" AHMEN TO THAT!!!
     
  16. ralfish

    ralfish Active Member

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    Old injuries are comiing back to hunt me, big time. So I have gone to the short rod. 12-'6. It fishes quiet well to 120'. But most of my fishing is within 80'. Will huck bellies to 65' just fine, but really shines with scandis and short bellies ( with tips). Not a fan of skagits, but thats just me. Wind doesnt affect short and mid bellies as bad the long belly, i can fish a lot of water long belly guys cant. Its just easier on my body. Maybe one day I'll find a long rod that doesnt trash me , but for now the body tolerates the short rod.

    Why short rods are so popular? Its way easier learning to cast a short rod with a skagit line than a long rod with a long belly line. Plain and simple
     
  17. SPEYBUM

    SPEYBUM Member

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    The Backcast room when using any Fly rod and a speycast can modified by how you perform the cast that you have chosen to make.

    I started fishing long rods and longer lines with these if you had to find a way to make them work.
    There are some streams where a 13 ft would be a long rod and the same rules would have to applies as if you were working a long rod big river with limited back cast room.

    Adjusting your talet to make a restricted back cast maneuver no matter how long the rod or how long the line.
    The THCI test wants you to make a restricted backcast ( less that 6 ft) withe the same rod and line that you must make a 80 ft cast with out shooting.
    It is a matter of understanding how to get what you need out of what you have.

    Long before the Skagit line and Skagit Clan came into being.
    Casting with little back cast room were being made by many Flyfishers and they did not think any thing about it.
    The late Mike Maxwell one of the original Speyfathers , in his Video on the Art and Science of Spey casting
    Is shown making a 80 ft cast from the Coal Seam on the Bulkley River In BC.
    These speycasts were made with a very restricted back cast.

    Go out and put your self into harms way and see how little back cast room you need.

    The longer the rod the more we have to start using out bodies with what I call body English to help us make the 400 or so casts that you make 8 hrs of fishing ( not data but got it off the web).
    Body transfer will cut the fatigue in all Fly Casting including single hand I teach it to all my students in one way or another.
    The two handed rod empowers those who have less upper body strength just as the two handed serve did for tennis.



    Far to many people (my self included) look for the Magic Bullet that magical mystical tool to save the world of Speyfishing.
    I think there is one but you can not buy you have to build he understanding of what you need to do.

    So pick your weapon and enjoy: for what you think deep down inside is all that counts.

    :thumb:
     
  18. Brian Thomas

    Brian Thomas Active Member

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    Shorter rods can be the better tool for landing fish on rivers like the Thompson . Chasing fish on the T is next to impossible on all but one of the runs I like to fish . And some of the water I fish has you wading in 3 feet of water 4 feet off the bank , and beaching fish is a challenge . Not that I get many of them , but I do like to touch each fish I hook if I can . Shorter rods make it a bit easier . The river is best fished with a long rod though .
     
  19. floatinghat

    floatinghat Member

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    Because you don’t have one, you only have the 15 and 12.

    Only overkill from your perspective, actually a true 15ft 8wt would have a slower taper and bend deeper into the blank giving you a greater sensation than a 12ft 7wt. Learning to fish angles and presentation is completely different than casting. I have a Sage 8150 that is a wonderful rod with a 6lb Deschutes or GR fish and I don’t get the feeling you describe.

    Not necessarily true, 80ft out doesn’t always mean 80ft 90deg. out from the bank. It means 80ft cast to get your desired presentation. You are fishing CFT down and across fishing small CW type flies. The rock is 40ft off the shore you could easily present that fly on the 12fter. I will agree that the 15ft rod would be a better choice.

    The distinction between casting and fishing needs to be made. I like to fish steeper angles with long casts and select water to match that criteria. It lets me provide a different presentation, cast long dry line, and catch some fish .
     
  20. Leroy Laviolet

    Leroy Laviolet Aint no nookie like chinookie

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    Ahhhh.... Finally the dialogue I was looking for-

    Not rocket Science .... Seems to have escaped a couple of you-:rofl:

    This thread has nothing to do with simplicity or highly technical talk, it's about anilizing the use of equipment in a certain application and useing FACTS not OPINIONS to back it up Simple...

    It's not rocket science...

    On with the discusion boys !!:thumb:

    Floating hat, I couldn't agree more-

    Arron, I learned this exact thing this winter on a run on the Clearwater...
    Trees out over the top of me, ass to the rocks...
    15' rod... No problem once I realized the importance of anchor placement relative to also the angle of the foreward cast - Amazing what can be accomplished when failier, or grabbing a shorter rod isn't an option...
    Figuring out the limitations of a system isn't for the guy who says, screw it , this is too hard, when I can get " good enough " with an easier method-



    Yup, I'm with ya on that one in many cases, though not all obviously, for there are some "Rocket science situations" that they excell at !!:rofl:

    How good is this !! Excellent!!!!
    Arron, you are on it man, thank you for the input and Teaching us all some things based on the knowledge you have based on fact--
     
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