Single Foot Guides vs. Double Foot Guides

Discussion in 'Rod Building' started by Don P, Feb 22, 2006.

  1. Don P New Member

    Posts: 2
    Friedens, PA
    Ratings: +0 / 0
    Any information on the pros and cons of each would be appreciated. I am building an 8'3" 3wt rod.

    Also, the kit I received has 2 stripper guides - 12 & 10. I received a total of 10 guides (2 were stripper guides). The guide spacing chart specifies 10 guides. 2 of the 10 are stripper guides and most rods I have seen in the past have only 1 stripper guide. Is it common-practice to use 2 stripper guides?
  2. Wayne Kohan fish-ician

    Posts: 1,021
    TriCities, WA
    Ratings: +97 / 0
    Single foot guides only have one wrap, so the main difference is that you can keep the weight down (uses less finish.) Also quicker to wrap since you only have about half of the wraps to do. I must say though that I find it much more difficult to wrap a single foot guide because I have trouble keeping it in place, especially on the smaller guides near the tip. With double foot guides you can use tape over the foot you're not wrapping, but with single foot guides it's hard to use a thin strip of tape to hold it in place, without it getting in the way of your wrapping. But I like the look of a single foot better myself.

    I used two strippers on my 6 weight, but probably only one is needed on lighter rods. Art Sheck advises using two strippers on anything over a 5 weight saying that it helps in shooting the line, and the extra weight it adds is near the handle and won't affect the action of the rod all that much.

    Wayne
  3. Desmond Wiles Sir Castaline

    Posts: 812
    Snohomish, Wa
    Ratings: +0 / 0
    I just finished building my first rod and I used single foot guides. I didn't seem to have a problem with wrapping as Wayne mentioned. The trick I think is to use a very thin piece of tape, giving yourself room to wrap enough of the foot, then you can remove the tape.

    The downfall of single foot guides is they will break if your not careful with them. The upside, is they will shoot line nicer than the double foot snake guides.
  4. James Mello Inventor of the "closed eye conjecture"

    Posts: 2,787
    Tacoma
    Ratings: +88 / 0
    so just my opinion on the whole thing...

    1) You have waaaayyy to many guides. That rod should have 9 at most. Based on a static deflection test, you should be able to pare that down to around 8. Less guides == better performance and snappier feel.

    2) Use 1 stripper, the size 10. The 12 won't help at all and frankly on a smaller rod would look out of place.

    3) For single foot guides, you can hold them in place either with thing strips of tape, or you can tie them on with rubber bands or surgical tubing. Find a method that works for you and stick to it! ;)

    As for weather to use single foots or doubles, it's largely a cosemtics issue. There are performance benefits to going single foots, and there are speed advantages to getting things wrapped, but either will perform adequately. Stick with what you like and go for it! :)

    BTW, when you're done post some pics! It'd be nice to see a new rod! :)
  5. herl Member

    Posts: 877
    the other washington
    Ratings: +1 / 0
    I have tried a few rods with single foot guides and I gotta tell you, I don't care for them. Maybe the ones I've delt with have been cheap ones but it seems to me that they increase the friction on the line by a significant amount. Intuitively they seem more constriciting and the ones I've used have made an audible rasping noise from the line/guide contact. They also seem to be more fragile - but I've never broken one.

    On the upside, they are supposed to be lighter and allow the rod to flex more freely.

    As for me, I will not buy a rod with single foot guides again and when I start building them, I definately will not use single foots.

    Just my (pretty strong) opinion.

    Eric
  6. James Mello Inventor of the "closed eye conjecture"

    Posts: 2,787
    Tacoma
    Ratings: +88 / 0
    Were you throwing a newer Loomis? If so, the it was using RECCoil titanium guides. A lot of folks are complaining about the "shootability" and noise coming off of them.

    -- Cheers
    -- James
  7. herl Member

    Posts: 877
    the other washington
    Ratings: +1 / 0
    I was specifically talking about the cabelas LST, but i have avoided Loomis rods b/c they like the single footers so much.
  8. Porter Active Member

    Posts: 6,426
    Kenmore, WA, USA.
    Ratings: +512 / 0
    Good thread......I know you are doing this for a 3 weight which tells me fresh water rod...right? :confused: (To James, Desmond.... what about Salt-water rods that have single foot guides...it is important to have the uplift of guide foot completely covered with epoxy...otherwise salt water will work it's way in and rust guide foot. It seems it would be easier to secure with epoxy the double guides feet because of the smaller uplift (gap). I hope I'm explaining this OK...this is the only thing I have heard negative about single foot guides (more susceptible to salt corrosion...due to poor epoxy covering on the front end of guide foot)...and of course they would appear to be easier to break off...and if that is happening you need to change your SOP.
  9. James Mello Inventor of the "closed eye conjecture"

    Posts: 2,787
    Tacoma
    Ratings: +88 / 0
    Forhan locking wraps plus a couple of blocking wraps fixes this. You end up with tiny tunnels that are very easy to fill ;)
  10. Willie Bodger Still, nothing clever to say...

    Posts: 1,112
    Lynnwood, WA
    Ratings: +0 / 0
    Hmm... I like the single foot guides and have put them on 2 of my rods with a third in the works and those Forhan Locking wraps look perfect for this rod (finally to that stage on my CTS).

    wb
  11. kenai New Member

    Posts: 42
    pa
    Ratings: +0 / 0
    i use tubing to hold my guides on the blank. surgical rubber tubing, cut it so that
    you have a little rubber band, slide it on the blank and onto guide foot and as it is being tied you just snip it off and finish wrapping your guide, works great-tony
  12. Wayne Kohan fish-ician

    Posts: 1,021
    TriCities, WA
    Ratings: +97 / 0

    What a great idea! It's probably easier to align your guide that way too. I knew I was making it harder than it had to be.

    Do you file your guide feet down before wrapping to thin them out?


    Wayne
  13. Banzai FFing and VWs...Bugs & Bugs

    Posts: 786
    Bremerton, WA
    Ratings: +3 / 0
    I do contour all of the guides prior to mounting them. It provides a smoother wrap. I will also insure that the snake guide feet are straight in line and flat and single foots(feet?) are 90 degrees to the loop. I suppose its esthetics really. Two different ways I've tried for aligning the guides is to use another blank to slide up the guides, the other is, after marking the spine, to tape a thread to the blank from end to end and mark the blank at the guide locations. Use a grease pencil or china marker for this, it will wipe right off after winding.
  14. James Mello Inventor of the "closed eye conjecture"

    Posts: 2,787
    Tacoma
    Ratings: +88 / 0
    Like Banzai does, you'll *ALWAYS* want to grind the feet smooth, contoured, and clean. While the benefits are debatable, the fit and finish aspects of doing this really seperates a well made rod from an off the shelf duplicate.

    Seriously, at some point in the future, take a look at a TFO rod. Most of the guides will have bizzare bumps and thread "hootuses", which don't affect performance, but does affect looks and makes things appear sloppy. They still cast great, but deep down inside, it bothers me! :(
  15. kenai New Member

    Posts: 42
    pa
    Ratings: +0 / 0
    always dress the guide feet before wrapping and make sure they sit flat on the blank. if just the tip of the foot contacts the blank it can rub in time. the tubing
    works great for doing a spine test and to get your guides in the right place
    before wrapping, you can even throw it to see how it performs, can't put a lot
    of muscle to it but you can get an idea??? also, if you go to the medical store to get tubing you will find it very spendy, go to your local archery shop and get some of the tubing they use to align the peep sight on the string of their
    bows, works great and a whole lot cheaper than surgical tubing--fisheye--
  16. rockymountain_brown Senore Member

    Posts: 300
    Montana.
    Ratings: +0 / 0
    I don't know about anyone else, but I have one rod(St Croix Leg. Ultra) with single foot guides, and It casts nice, but I don't like the way the single foot guides look on the rod. Perhaps I am a traditionalist.
    RMB
  17. Banzai FFing and VWs...Bugs & Bugs

    Posts: 786
    Bremerton, WA
    Ratings: +3 / 0
    From an esthetic standpoint, I,too, prefer a snake guide to the single foot. But all of my Lamiglas rods have the singles, plus my heavy spey, and a couple of others I own. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm warming to them as the rod's performance is not affected.
  18. earlsmith Member

    Posts: 499
    Seattle
    Ratings: +0 / 0
    I have found tha the single foot guide changes the action of the rod LESS. The double foot guides on lighter rods really make the original blank more stiff in action than when you start, which might be desirable, but in building rods for my sons, I only made this mistake once, and redid the rod and was much more plesed with the softer action of the 4 wt.
  19. Banzai FFing and VWs...Bugs & Bugs

    Posts: 786
    Bremerton, WA
    Ratings: +3 / 0
    When you think about it , it stands to reason that the more mtal and wraps you put on a rod the stiffer it will be. :) I put singles on a 7'6" 4wt Rainshadow I built recently, it "feels softer" than another similar blank I tried that was equipped with double footers. I had attributed the difference to the constructors and brands of line (both DT but different manufacturers).
  20. ScottC New Member

    Posts: 1
    Ashland, OR
    Ratings: +0 / 0
    no more single foot for me

    I'm not a builder, just an ordinary fisherman. I have two rods, one with single and the other with snake feet. They're similar in weight and action, and after using them side by side, I'd have to say my next rod will have snake guides.

    As others have noted, the single foot guides produce a raspy sound and a feeling of friction, while the snakes are silent and slick. The snakes are those on a TFO Ticr, and the single foot are on a rod similar to Loomis and are supposedly the best available (Batson tich). Both have the same # of guides.
    Using lots of line dressing helps with the noise, but I think all things being equal the snakes cast better.

    I really don't believe that the snake guides noticeably affect the flex of the rod.