single foot guides

Discussion in 'Rod Building' started by mike doughty, Mar 22, 2006.

  1. mike doughty Honorary Member

    Posts: 10,163
    the uinta's
    Ratings: +5 / 0
    for those in the know, how do you keep the guide still while trying to wrap it? i tried but everytime my thread hit the guide it would move on me. pain in the ass, so i put double foot guides on instead.
  2. Jim Fitz Member

    Posts: 446
    Your City ,State
    Ratings: +3 / 0
    Mike,

    My favorite way is to use little o-rings made from cutting up rubber tubing. You can actually buy o-rings for this but cutting up tubing is cheaper. Different size tubing is needed for different parts of the blank - obviously there is a large difference between the tip and the last stripper. One good source of tubing is fuel line material for alcohol powered remote controlled toys (cars, etc.) - hobby shops carry different sizes.

    I always put on the tubing, with some extras in case something goes wrong, right after marking the blank for guide placement. The main problem is finding tubing small enough for the top.

    I tried the hot glue stick approach and a couple of types of elastic thread but settled on the o-rings. Simple and pretty cheap. A couple of 1 foot pieces of tubing last a long time. Elastic thread (craft stores) is 2nd best from my limited experience. Hopefully you'll get some more good ideas here.
  3. James Mello Inventor of the "closed eye conjecture"

    Posts: 2,784
    Tacoma
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    Buy the wide blue tape... The carefully cut across the width of the tape to get little pieces of tape. Then use a couple of them to hold the guide in place. When the thread gets to the first one, then take it off.

    Finally, there are a couple of things that you are probably being to fastidous about.

    1) The guides don't have to be on perfectly in order to get them on. You can always align them after they are done

    2) If they are moving that easily, you may be using too much tension. Try less tension and see if that helps.

    -- Cheers
    -- James
  4. mike doughty Honorary Member

    Posts: 10,163
    the uinta's
    Ratings: +5 / 0
    when i put guides on i just get them close and like you said i line them up as i go. with the double footed guides i use small strips of masking tape to hold them down and tried this with the single foot but just couldn't get them to stay. it's possible that i didn't have the tape tight enough. just trying to find an easier method
  5. Jim Fitz Member

    Posts: 446
    Your City ,State
    Ratings: +3 / 0
    Mike,

    Your question was also posted on www.rodbuilding.org yesterday. It is a common question and has a lot of responses. I forgot about just using tape although I have done that a fair amount as well. As James says, use the blue tape. If you use regular masking tape you run up the chance that when you peel it off while you are wrapping, you'll have some residue to deal with when you hands are full dealing with the wrapping.

    Jim
  6. Nooksack Mac Active Member

    Posts: 1,942
    Bellingham, WA, USA.
    Ratings: +108 / 0
    I use a glue stick made for that purpose. Sorry I don't remember the brand, and I got it from the Dale Clemens company, which has gone under.
    You heat the guide foot, or feet, with a lighter, touch with the glue stick, then press them onto the blank. It's uncomfortably hot, but for just a few seconds; then it solidifies and holds the guide during the wrapping process, and doesn't show.
  7. Scott Behn Active Member

    Posts: 1,201
    Lk Stevens, Wa.
    Ratings: +0 / 0
    We use 1/2 masking tape that we cut into thinner strips. I lay my masking tape down flat on the edge of the power wrapper. I then cut a very thin (<1/8") strip of tape. I then peel up one end and place the guide under it so that the tape is crossing the top of the guide foot next to the ring. Then I place the guide on the blank with the tape already afixed to the guide foot and just continue to wrap the around the blank and over the guide foot covering the previous wrap of tape.

    Another thing could be to loosen up your tension a tad, especially as you get closer to the tip

    Also, I don't know what weight this rod is, check to see if your guide feet are not too big for your blank down towards the tip. Sometimes the guides feet are wider then the blank is round.

    :cool:
  8. willieboat Member

    Posts: 444
    Lacey, WA
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    Small spot of super glue.

    Don
  9. mike doughty Honorary Member

    Posts: 10,163
    the uinta's
    Ratings: +5 / 0
    i thought about that but was not sure if it would affect/damage the blank at all.
  10. mike doughty Honorary Member

    Posts: 10,163
    the uinta's
    Ratings: +5 / 0
    masking tape is what i was using but maybe didn't have it tight enough. the rod is a 4 weight
  11. James Mello Inventor of the "closed eye conjecture"

    Posts: 2,784
    Tacoma
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    Not to say that willie boat is wrong, but I would disagree with the super glue. I think it would make it impossible to correct misalignment, it could mar the rod finish, and depending on whether you have too much on, make it impossible to have a smooth clean finish.

    The reality is IMO, if the masking tape ain't holding it, then you need to rethink your technique. What is the specifics of what is going wrong when wrapping the single foot guides?

    -- Cheers
    -- James
  12. Wayne Kohan fish-ician

    Posts: 1,015
    TriCities, WA
    Ratings: +93 / 0
    The reality is IMO, if the masking tape ain't holding it, then you need to rethink your technique. What is the specifics of what is going wrong when wrapping the single foot guides?

    -- Cheers
    -- James[/QUOTE]

    The problem I had with single foot guides was that as I started the wrap up the foot, it would push the guide back. I think that I would do better if I file the guide feet to a thinner height before starting.

    I like the idea of bands as I think that might hold things still. The problem with any tape is that towards the tip, there just is not enough rod for the tape to grip and hold the guide still, especially if you are using a thin strip.


    Wayne
  13. James Mello Inventor of the "closed eye conjecture"

    Posts: 2,784
    Tacoma
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    Yeah, it sounds like you should do some more dressing of the guide foot prior to the wrap. My guide feet tend to have a gentle slope from front to back, and the very end has been filed to a slightly rounded point. It seems to me that you may have broad tips on your guide feet, so the thread pushes it forward. Another thing you can do is instead of trying to wrap closely up to the guide foot, wrap 2 or 3 wraps slightly further up the guide and use a burnisher to push the wraps tight again.

    Finally, there are a few things with the tape that can help :)

    1) Use fresh tape. The stuff sitting in your garage for 5 years tends to deteriorate. The sticky stuff just seems to degrade over time, so using old stuff doesn't work well.

    2) Buy good tape. The good stuff sticks well, but doesn't leave residue. The bad stuff doesn't stick well and leaves residue. I use the blue 3M stuff

    3) Don't handle the tape with your fingers. Use 2 pairs of tweezers or a bodkin and some tweezers. Seems to install faster on the smaller tips, and it doesn't rub off the sticky stuff.

    4) Use a relatively tall wrap of tape in front of the guide. I do that just to mark were the guides are supposed to go, and perhaps this "blocking" piece of tape is the reason why my guides don't creep forward. If you plan on doing locking wraps this may not work...

    5) Put the tape on the guide, then wrap on the blank. Doing it this way seems to make it so that you handle it less.

    -- Cheers
    -- James
  14. kenai New Member

    Posts: 42
    pa
    Ratings: +0 / 0
    james has got it! dress up your guide feet so that the thread will climb the guide foot easily. the guide is moving because the thread is pushing it. i make mine as thin as i can and then use emory cloth to clean it up. besides making the
    wrapping easier it looks a whole lot better too and by the way, i don't think you
    can beat using the tubing, very simple and works well, try it. good luck--tony--
  15. Wayne Kohan fish-ician

    Posts: 1,015
    TriCities, WA
    Ratings: +93 / 0
    While we're on the subject, what do you do to 'dress' the guide foot? I've tried filing by hand, but have trouble holding the guides still while filing. I've also tried using a Dremel, but don't feel I have great control of that either. Do all guide feet need to be filed? Many brands claim they don't need to be. Finally, I haven't used color preserver in my thread so that the guide feet show through. Is there any issue with filing from a cosmetic point of view?

    Maybe this should be a different thread.

    Wayne
  16. James Mello Inventor of the "closed eye conjecture"

    Posts: 2,784
    Tacoma
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    All guides need to be dressed. The closest thing to guides that didn't need it were some ultra expensive Fuji SiC guides. But then again at $5.00 a guide, the damn things should be ready to wrap!

    To hold the guide, get a good set of flat faced needle nose pliers. Super glue on some sort of soft material or use a thick poly dip on the tips. After that, you've got a really good holding tool that won't mar the finish on the guides. Also the soft grips will be replaceable whenever.

    Now, you can use a dremel to dress guides, but it takes some practice. I probably went through a full set of guides practicing with it before I learned the technique to do it right.
    For a person doing it for a hobby project, I would just suggest a really good set of diamond files. To file it this is how I do it.

    1) File the tip of the guide to a point using the file held at a 45 degree angle. You basically want to make it so that you have a triangle like so "^" when viewing the front of the guide, and a triangle at like 60 degrees like "/\" when viewing from the top.

    2) After getting it done to a point, start at the tip and then file the top flat. Get the tip as thing as possible, then work your way up the guide. You want the slope to be as gentle as possible.

    3) After getting the guide foot shaped, make sure that you polish it with some 600 grit sandpaper or an emory cloth. If you don't, the guide may dig into the blank when it flexes. Overall, if the edge can bite into your fingernail, it's too sharp.

    As for cosmetics. If you have black guides, the put a couple of strokes of a sharpie over the filed off section. Let it dry for a good long time before you wrap, or the color may wipe off. Other colors can be matched similarly.

    Hope this helps :)

    -- Cheers
    -- James
  17. kenai New Member

    Posts: 42
    pa
    Ratings: +0 / 0
    this james guy has got it down!! i take the guide and hold the foot on a flat hard surface and file it that way. he's right, as thin as possible, those big humps look awful. the ink marker trick works well, thought i had one on him there, wrong!!!
    all guides need dressed!!!!! i have better luck with a file but thats my choice. i
    think the more time you spend on the guide feet the better for the end result. i
    am sure you will see it's value. goodluck--tony--
  18. kenai New Member

    Posts: 42
    pa
    Ratings: +0 / 0
    this james guy has got it down!! i take the guide and hold the foot on a flat hard surface and file it that way. he's right, as thin as possible, those big humps look awful. the ink marker trick works well, thought i had one on him there, wrong!!!
    all guides need dressed!!!!! i have better luck with a file but thats my choice. i
    think the more time you spend on the guide feet the better for the end result. i
    am sure you will see it's value. goodluck--tony--
  19. Wayne Kohan fish-ician

    Posts: 1,015
    TriCities, WA
    Ratings: +93 / 0
    Thanks James. I appreciate the advice. It's slow work and I don't always feel like I'm getting very far as I do the work. Like most of the work, I guess I gotta be more patient.

    Wayne
  20. James Mello Inventor of the "closed eye conjecture"

    Posts: 2,784
    Tacoma
    Ratings: +87 / 0
    It's the little things that make the difference. It's amazing to watch the ladies at Lamiglas put the guides on as they are very fast. But then again, when you step back you realize that they don't prep the feet, only do a minimal amount of burnishing, and usually don't go back to clean up the fuzzies.

    Basically they are doing 90% of the work, to create 99% of the rods out there. It's good stuff, but that last 10% of effort (for the most descriminating of folks) are the steps left out in mass production cause they take a long time to do. Keep it up, and cherish the work you do :)

    -- Cheers
    -- James