Discussion in 'Spey Clave' started by trekker, Feb 10, 2010.
I second that -
Mike Kinney doesn't have a dvd, as much as we would all love to see one. And I'm sure not once has Ed ever claimed to be "better" than Mike. Both guys are awesome and Ed's dvd is informative and worth watching. Enough of the " who is better". These are people, not rods.
watching Kinney cast is a pleasure. Definitely time for him to make a DVD and capture some of his magic.
a book, dvd, anything from him would be awesome. in the meantime, become a fan of his on facebook. he does regular and informative posts.
sorry, I'm not a facebook/ tweet/ etc sort. I'll just talk to Mike when I see him again.
Lucky you. He doesn't come to Ohio too often.
lucky you... at least there's fish in your rivers! LOL
maybe you can get out to a PNW clave sometime, and some great casters go to MW claves too, I hear.
Chill out pal-
Everyone is open to discuss there opinion, and your post insinuates things that were not said-
Yeah, we are lucky with our numbers, and we get to fish them without restrictions. I'm setting my sites on one of the mich. or new york claves for now. I sure hope someday i'll make it to the pnw.....
I'm gonna avoid the pissing match with fishemhard.
But back to the thread..... Watch Skagit Master! It's good, not much fish porn, but i thought the casting info was valuable.
Taken the high road, I like it dude !!
Yeah well, 25 to 50% of your posts are worth reading, so i don't want to have to ignore the good ones just cause i hate your guts.:thumb:
Just kiddin Leroy.
Right on man !!! You may not agree we alot of my stuff, but I glad you find some of it intertaining !!:rofl::thumb::rofl:
I get the gist of what you were saying about " People not rods... " :ray1: I'm a bit thick skinned at times... No harm intended , most of the time !
First of all I would like to thank those of you that have made the kind comments about me in the last few Skagit related posts, I appreciate the support. Secondly I grow weary of all this pitting of one person against the other or one rod against the other or one casting method against the other. All of these subjects are simply contributions to the sport not cut and dried last word to be said, only rod that works, only person that knows what he or she is talking about. This sport always has been is now and always will be about more than one: person, technique, rod, line, casting style, fly etc. Instead this sport is the sum of all the accomplishments and people involved. I am just a student of a sport that continues to grow and evolve every day, keeping up with it is a fulltime job! Since teaching casting and fishing is what I do for a living I try to learn and become a little better at my job with each experience and then try to relate what I learn to my friends, students, and clients so that they may also grow in sport as well. I have found over the years that if I put myself on a pedestal and proclaim to the world that I have it all figured out that I would immediately slow down learning. During the time that I am standing there a lot of water passes under the pedestal. By nature then I tend to rebel against those individuals that claim or promote that they definitely are better than or know more than anyone else, but I do not begrudge them their accomplishments instead I try to learn everything I can about what they are saying and how the idea fits into the whole picture.
One of the problems that continue to reveal themselves is lack of reading skills or attention to detail in the definitions and terminology of any certain subject. So let me clarify a couple of things. I do not know who invented the term “Skagit casting”, it may have been Ed Ward or it may have been dreamed up near some Scotch fueled camp fire. Never the less Ed was the first person to write a well thought out essay on the subject which he published on Dana Sturn’s “Spey Pages” forum in 2001. Since then Ed has done his best to popularize the technique according to his own experiences and evolution as a caster. Ed deserves most if not all of the credit for popularizing the term and definition of his style of casting. By Ed’s own definition of waterborne casts, line lengths and weights, and extra moves such as “Perry Pokes”, wraps, and dumps exclude me from being the inventor of this technique.
What I might be able to take the credit for is simplifying the “epoxy splice” and changing it to a “super glue splice”, I also did a lot of trial and error work figuring out how to get clean turnover when adding sink-tips to floating lines. My original ideas for short heavy shooting heads for two handed rods stemmed totally from rumors and hearsay that I picked up from being on the river every day. I was not one of the privileged few that hung around the who’s who of fly fishing at the time. Everything was very secretive in those days and anyone that caught a lot of fish like I did was excluded and had to figure things out on his own. So where do I fit in all of this? I was one of the first few to get a sixteen foot proto type two-handed rod from Sage Rod Company. I was also the first person to custom design, manufacture, and sell short heavy heads for single and two handed rods in the mid eighties that I know of. The technique and overall line designs that I came up with were shared with Charlie Gearheart and Eric Balser who ran the fly department at The Skagit Angler, formerly known as Kim’s Sporting Goods in Mount Vernon in those days. This is where most of the contemporary “Skagit Gang” hung out. I also was one of the first to develop and teach my own style of casting short heavy heads for two handed rods on the Puget Sound “S” rivers.
When it comes to style I would have to say that I use no particular one or “Adaptive” if you will. To me simplicity and least amount of effort for most amount of return is important. I don’t change styles for different types and lengths of rods and lines instead I adjust the stroke length and height of the rod tip to design a cast for the specific equipment and circumstance. The simple basics are all that count: lift, constant tension, anchor, d-loop opposite the target and straight rod tip path under tension driving forward. These basics can be applied to any style of casting. This is no different than fishing deep or shallow, fast or slow, long or short. Adapting is part of the nature of the game. If you can use the simple basics to set your anchor and D-loop with one simple and smooth move then why use two or three? If adjustment is needed to shape the d-loop or to achieve anchor placement or extra load, then by all means poke, dump, or contrive an anchor and d-loop accordingly. In a lot of circumstances the same amount of rod load can be achieved with leverage instead of water drag. In other circumstances water load is more efficient. Top or bottom hand power application with an opposite hand fulcrum may be called for in designing a cast for different circumstances. I guess what I am saying here is that all types of lines and rods have plusses and minuses. They are all simply tools for the job at hand.
So did I invent “Skagit Casting”? No, but I can cast Skagit lines with the best of them and because of keeping an open mind and understanding the basics I also can cast and teach the rest of the styles and equipment with ease and consistency, I think this is necessary for any good instructor.
Some of you have expressed a want or need for a book and or video on related subjects. While I have been working on some things in this direction I am focused on trying to make a living right now with all of my rivers closing down. I have to pay the bills somehow, but in a way I am already doing a lot of writing. I took the time to print out most of my one paragraph mini blogs on “Face Book” the other day and it came up to thirty pages plus on my fan page. This coupled with over 500 photos and 7 links to videos on You Tube would definitely qualify my page as not being your teenager’s Face Book any more.
Thanks again MK
Happy belated birthday by the way Mike. Hope you celebrated the day doing what you love.
It is amazing often to get first hand insight on this stuff from guys like yourself. It's also great how after everything you've contributed, you are still humble and so willing to help others. In a world and market where fame amongst fly anglers seem to be growing, it really is nice to be able to get first hand experience learning from one of the best. For everything you've contributed and for getting the first spey rod in my hands, I think everyone will agree - we thank you for your help and contribution!
Now with the Skykomish closed, will you still be holding those Sunday clinics? I'm sure it's not breaking any laws to be casting a ball of yarn.
Bravo Mike, Well said I hope to take ome lessons from you some day because I hear how great a teacher you are. Right now I''m learning with Aaron and enjoying it emensly as he's another great one. These other guys have to get real and learn that this isn't a competion of who's f'irst at what but that they just need to find what works for them in their situation and then perfect it. You and Aaron have contributed More to the joy of fishermen every where by being so willing to share of your knowledge and expertise with those who ask it of you. That's wonderful for all of us who just want to enjoy some time with nature and our favorite pastiime. Thanks to you guys ant those who help you it's a great benifit to all of us.
Well said Mike, good job. I had one of your early homemade lines, what you called a summer steelhead line from the Swallow in Seattle. It was well made and an excellent line.
Hey Mike, we love ya man.
Watched you work with a couple of guys on the Skagit a few weeks ago. We were fishing the island directly across the river from you just above Hamilton. I could see the young man you were working with improve as he worked down the run using your suggestions. Keep up the good work.
Well put Mike, you hit the fly on the head. No matter how long we have been in this fishing realm it is truly a life long learning experience whether we learn from one another or from our own experiences this sport will continue to grow because of people like you who humbly contribute to this sport we call Fly Fishing.
Good fishing Buddy,
I hadn't seen Ed's video until this weekend when a friend brought his copy and one of the rooms we stayed in had a TV. I could probably pick up a lot from it, but paid attention to the points about a compact Skagit casting stroke and was able to put that to work the very next day to good effect.
As for Mike Kinney's contributions, you may not have been privileged, but you were already one of steelheading's who's who before we first met. The privilege belongs to those of us who are fortunate to get a lesson from time to time from the really serious students of casting. Guys like Ed, you, Aaron, Buckner, and others. I was lucky in that casting single hand rods came almost naturally to me after a few lessons, and I took fly casting for granted. One of the reasons I stick with two-handed casting now is because it has been so humbling. I really have had to work at it to do anything more than flounder. Assistance from those who are truly expert makes all the difference.
Thanks to all of you.
As someone who just started spey casting with a skagit head, this video is worth every penny. Immediately upon watching it I was seeing what I have been doing wrong. I had to teach myself as there is not any clinics or instructors that I know of near my home. I have some bad habits that hopefully this video can help me break!