Skagit River Steehead

Discussion in 'Steelhead' started by Andrew Lawrence, Nov 27, 2012.

  1. Derek Day Rockyday

    Posts: 567
    Olympia
    Ratings: +146 / 0
    We should make an important and overlooked distinction. Risk to an individual fish and the risk of contributing to the likleyhood that a population becomes extinct in the near future. There is an important difference here. Individually, there is a +/- 3% chance that a fish dies in a c&r encounter. The risk that a population goes extinct from a c&r season +/- 0. Probably about the same risk created by turning the lights on in Seattle. Assume that one caught every esceped fish. 180 fish wouldn't live to spawn. That would be unfortunate and sad, but not even close to significant.

    What about the risk created by the Spring Chinook sport fishery? Wild steelhead are caught there. What about the (risk of) reduced productivity as a result of using chambers creek brood stock in the Skagit? What about the risk of by-catch in the hatchery steelhead commercial and sport seasons? What about the fact that the entire lower river is diked. Why is a c&r season where you make your stand? I just don't get it.

    Freestone, you're just picking a fight. You seem to like feeling controversial.
    Salmo_g and Evan Burck like this.
  2. Skeena88 Member

    Posts: 235
    Covington WA
    Ratings: +17 / 0
    "I would imagine" doesn't meet any minimum standard of credibility. Perhaps you should do your own researchto provide studies that support your (inferred) hypothesis that fly fishing mortality is about 1% and that the referenced studies are not relevant to fly fishing. Please provide the data that supports your statement that the mortality numbers are way too high. Opinion or data? Please clarify and provide the data and citations.
  3. TallFlyGuy Adipossessed!

    Posts: 869
    Vancouver, WA.
    Ratings: +44 / 0

    LOL, Really? Are you saying that you need research and studies to show the mortality rate for barbless hooks using bait is the same or lower than the mortality rate for single barbless hooks on artificial lures or flies? That's like saying you need research and studies done to show the sky is blue and the grass is green. .... I'll give you this little snippet coming from the NFS to show there is a lower mortality rate for fish hooked in the above mentioned manners. I don't really want to spend hours looking up or trying to find a study on single barbless mortality rates on steelhead, but there is a study done on trout that shows it is 1.7%. If you need that reference as well, I can give it to you.


    "The available information assessing hook and release mortality of
    adult steelhead suggests that hook and release mortality is low. Hooton (1987) found catch and
    release mortality of adult winter steelhead to average 3.4% (127 mortalities of 3,715 steelhead
    caught) when using barbed and barbless hooks, bait and artificial lures. Among 336 steelhead
    captured on various combinations of popular terminal gear in the Keogh River, the mortality of
    the combined sample was 5.1%. Natural bait had slightly higher mortality (5.6%) than did
    artificial lures (3.8%), and barbed hooks (7.3%) had higher mortality than barbless hooks (2.9%).
    Hooton (1987) concluded that catch and release of adult steelhead was an effective mechanism
    for maintaining angling opportunity without negatively impacting stock recruitment"

    http://nativefishsociety.org/wp-con...-5-08-position-of-barbless-hooks-and-bait.pdf
  4. TallFlyGuy Adipossessed!

    Posts: 869
    Vancouver, WA.
    Ratings: +44 / 0
  5. _WW_ Fishes with Wolves

    Posts: 1,903
    Skagit River
    Ratings: +643 / 0
    And yet the reported escapement was well above the floor level. All of these numbers including escapement can be subjected to the "nod and wink" factor - although I don't think I will mention that to the commission.
    That's what the boys on the Olympic Peninsula tell me.

    So...do you fish at all? The possibility that you might hook a wild steelhead is not 0%.

    Small in magnitude for GREATLY DEPRESSED - That is NOT the Skagit

    Which is what this is all about, which will result in allowing a C&R season when the numbers allow it.
    Currently the statewide plan is to not kill any until there are enough to kill them by the truckloads.

    My comment didn't come out as intended - I was referring to April 6th thinking you weren't coming.
  6. Chris Bellows The Thought Train

    Posts: 1,626
    The Salt
    Ratings: +753 / 0
    In my experience having landed quite a few steelhead hooked on jigs and pink worms below floats, your statement regarding many of "those fish being foul hooked" is just not true. i can count all the foul hooked fish i've seen on gear fished below floats on a closed fist.
  7. Jerry Daschofsky Moderator

    Posts: 7,716
    Graham, WA, USA.
    Ratings: +657 / 5
    Yeah, I have to disagree with that too Bob (I can't believe I missed that). Having fished both of those for almost 25 years, I can say I've yet to recall a foul hook on my part. Then add to the guys I fish with, can't recall a foul hook for them either. BUT......if you're talking about a hatchery hole where the snaggers are there fishing them, well that's different. A weighted jig without a float is a good way to snag. And a double hook setup on a pink worm strafed through a stacked hole and setting the hook every second would do the trick too. And, will add, some of the most aggressive strikes I've had were with a pink worm setup.
    Bob Triggs likes this.
  8. Bob Triggs Your Preferred Olympic Peninsula Fly Fishing Guide

    Posts: 3,973
    Olympic Peninsula
    Ratings: +643 / 0
    In almost every instance that I have witnessed this it was a case of guides, with guests standing up fishing, drifting downriver with the rigs in the water over the sides, including fly rods. I was not accusing anyone here personally. Just an observation. And my experience is true for me. Inexperienced anglers are more prone to this.
  9. bennysbuddy the sultan of swing

    Posts: 2,262
    m-ville
    Ratings: +674 / 0
    And, will add, some of the most aggressive strikes I've had were with a pink worm setup.( Quote Jerry Daschofsky)

    I'm hopeing your swinging that worm with a speyrod ,After all this is a flyfishing forum!!!!
  10. Jerry Daschofsky Moderator

    Posts: 7,716
    Graham, WA, USA.
    Ratings: +657 / 5
    Lol nope. I proudly fish gear too.

    Bob I'm no where near offended. But I bet I spend more time fishing with gear anglers then you and most others. I've actually taught anglers to fish jigs and pink worms correctly. In fact I was asked to write a jig fishing article for Salmon Trout Steelheader about 10 years ago. I gladly obliged. Only thing I can imagine of you have some, but not that much, experience with it. Unless the guide in question was telling clients to premature set the hook. I could see it if it was same guide over and over.
    Bob Triggs likes this.
  11. freestoneangler Not to be confused with Freestone

    Posts: 3,965
    Edgewood, WA
    Ratings: +706 / 1
    Because making the decision about having or nor having a C&R fishery is totally within our control -- as opposed to the myriad of other factors influencing stocks and for which we have little or no control over.

    My position on this subject is only controversial to those that don't share the same view.
  12. bennysbuddy the sultan of swing

    Posts: 2,262
    m-ville
    Ratings: +674 / 0
    Freestone, you're just picking a fight. You seem to like feeling controversial.
    My position on this subject is only controversial to those that don't share the same view.

    I'm abit lost.
    Are you against C & R or just opposed having C& R season on the native Skagit /Sauk fish
  13. Derek Day Rockyday

    Posts: 567
    Olympia
    Ratings: +146 / 0
    Where do you draw the line then? Is it any better to have a c&r season on the Hoh? Is it addding any more risk to have a c&r season on the Skagit? Every time you have a c&r season you introduce risk, often minute, but there is some. They buffered the 4800 fish escapement goal, just to be safe, to 6000. The fact is, the Skagit, if it makes it's super conservative escapement goal, can handle the impact. Just like c&r fishing on the Hoh doesn't create a substanital risk.

    Given the way you calculate acceptable risk, I will assume that you also avoid airplanes, driving, taking a bath and fishing for any steelhead ever.
    TallFlyGuy likes this.
  14. Sean Beauchamp Hot and Heavy at yer 6

    Posts: 2,107
    Shoreline, WA, U.S.
    Ratings: +461 / 1
    I miss opening this thread and reading something of value written by people with passion. Now every other response is Freestonespammer trying so hard to stir the pot and play the devils advocate. I think you should open a special thread just for you. Slam a redbull or two and type out one long masterpiece about what your viewpoint actually is. I imagine it would be really tough for you.

    Occupy Skagit isn't invite only and I have nothing to do with its inception and I certainly hold no authority.... But I'm gettin the vibe you're uninvited?
    nailbender and Evan Burck like this.
  15. KerryS Ignored Member

    Posts: 6,699
    Sedro Woolley, WA, USA.
    Ratings: +1,744 / 0
    No one is "uninvited". Anyone who chooses to show up can and they can do so in any capacity they want. If that is in opposition of Occupy Skagit's stated goal, so be it.
    Bob Triggs likes this.
  16. TallFlyGuy Adipossessed!

    Posts: 869
    Vancouver, WA.
    Ratings: +44 / 0
    Great analogy.
  17. TallFlyGuy Adipossessed!

    Posts: 869
    Vancouver, WA.
    Ratings: +44 / 0
    I'm thinking, from his responses.... he might show up to protest the protest of the Occupy skagit movement.
  18. BDD Active Member

    Posts: 2,226
    Ellensburg, WA
    Ratings: +214 / 2
    :D

    If he does, I'll show up to protest his protest and make a few casts too.
  19. freestoneangler Not to be confused with Freestone

    Posts: 3,965
    Edgewood, WA
    Ratings: +706 / 1
    You guy's really do get all worked up when someone doesn't agree with you or suggests alternate perspectives. The only thing this and a few other select threads are missing is a MSLSD logo...good grief :rolleyes:

    A quick summary of what I've stated in prior posts:
    • I support and partake in C&R fishing when it has been determined that stocks will not be adversely affected.
    • I'd like to see a C&R fishery on the Skagit and all the rivers in the PS basin.
    • C&R does introduce risk -- which needs to be considered in the decision making.
    • I favor taking a conservative approach and err on the side or caution -- after all, isn't more about protecting the species than getting to fish?
    • I agree that rivers should be analyzed and these decisions made on an individual basis; as opposed to a collective PS basin.
    I response to those who prefer a thread (forum more like) free of all views that don't fit their agenda:
    • Use the ignore function or change the channel.
    Never planned on attending the rally -- not big on occupy movements. An excerpt of this thread might be valuable to the decision makers however...they are tasked with considering all points of view.
  20. BDD Active Member

    Posts: 2,226
    Ellensburg, WA
    Ratings: +214 / 2
    FS,

    I would bet that a large percentage of posters on this thread would totally agree with your 5 bullet items. So I gotta ask the question, what are we all arguing about?
    Sean Beauchamp likes this.