Something good coming out of D.C.

Discussion in 'Cast & Blast' started by Upton O, Apr 12, 2011.

  1. Upton O Blind hog fisherman

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    Good news for the folks in Montana who are concerned about the impact wolves are having on elk and deer populations:

    http://www.komonews.com/news/local/119741324.html

    Now some liberal, stupid, bunny hugging judge will probably declare the wolves to be interstate migratory animals and therefore under the direction of the federal government.
  2. ribka Active Member

    Posts: 1,419
    E WA
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    Saw it. Great info. The wolves have already depleted elk and moose pops by over 70% in some areas of Montana and Idaho. Hoping the States will endure over the Lib Judges.

    I am purchasing a wolf license this year if this passes
  3. Barry Member

    Posts: 52
    Whidbey Island, Washington
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    Good news?????????? If attaching unrelated policy riders in exchange for votes on "must do" fiscal legislation is a good policy making process for farmers in Montana then why not for farmers in eastern Washington, why not for farmers in central Oregon, why not for the Building Industry Association of Washington, why not for mining interests in Washington and Idaho. The next "must do" legislation comes up within a month - raising the federal debt limit. Just as the budget agreement requires votes from House Republicans so will next month's bill raising the debt limit.

    The chair of the House Natural Resources Committee is Doc Hastings from eastern Washington. As a committee chair Congressman Hastings will be a key vote for the debt limit bills. In return for his vote do you have any doubt that Congressman Hastings or other other like minded colleagues would be happy to demand "relief" from salmon restoration requirements disliked by eastern Washington farmers? How about Deschutes River irrigation restrictions opposed by central Oregon farmers? How about_______???

    Good news for Montana farmers? Perhaps. Good policy setting precedent? Not so good.
  4. Upton O Blind hog fisherman

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    Barry,
    You raise a very important point but you overlooked something. I didn't design the asinine way politicians work, I didn't create the system that is so prevalent in Washington these days. I didn't create the nastiness that permeates the atmosphere and relationships that our elected "leaders" have nurtured. Its "quid pro quo", the shallowest means for interacting with others and that is the way it IS, not as it should be. PACs, special interest groups, political correctness, and intended "non-factual statements" are the blueprint for running the country. So be it, the wolves will be managed now in a reasonable manner that takes into account the needs of humans, too. I vote very carefully given the poor choices I've been given.

    On a similar note, it you want to explore some interesting information, investigate world human population trends, carrying capacity of the earth in terms of all species and then human species. You want to see the real problem? There it is. Do you see anyone trying to address it? Naw, too much trouble, but fear not, Mother Nature will, its just a matter of time. At that point the wolves will be a moot point.

    You seem like a guy who would be fun to sit and argue a good debate. I love it.
  5. Alex MacDonald Dr. of Doomology

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    it's called "negotiating", but there's way too much federal interference with the states. From an historian's perspective, we're still fighting the civil war.
  6. Upton O Blind hog fisherman

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    Alex, I hadn't heard it put in that context before, I assume you are referring to "states' rights"?

    When I was working as a fisheries biologist in Georgia I was told I would taking a state representative out on a "field trip" in the coastal marshes. I was told to use my personal boat, take suitable fishing equipment and a couple of quarts of live shrimp. My expenses would be covered by petty cash. I did as I was told and took the gentleman on his "field trip". Apparently this guy was a "maker and shaker" in Atlanta and I was to insure his trip was rewarding. Well, over the day we had some good conversation and, in time, I told him I didn't get politics. It made no sense to me the way things were done. The gentleman smiled as he watched his float drift in the current and he said "Its really simple, help your friends and screw your enemies." That was 26 years ago. Enough said.
  7. woods Member

    Posts: 119
    NW, WA
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    I agree that this is good news. I like Barry's comments about good news but bad precedent.

    Wolf numbers have been above the original recovery goals for over a decade. Just because one Judge has a bleeding heart for the wolves doesn't mean big game populations throughout the west should suffer.
  8. Alex MacDonald Dr. of Doomology

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    Yep, Karl, that's what I was referring to. People think the war was about slavery, but that wasn't the case. In the current situation, it would appear that the judge doesn't care what plan is proposed, he's going to keep wolves on the list, period. I have a problem with people who don't have "skin in the game" telling those who do, how to play; they frequently don't have a clue what they're talking about. The nature of the land has changed in the last hundred years, and wolves are no longer part of the equation-haven't been for almost 100 wolf generations. Essentially what they want is the introduction of what is now a non-native species.
  9. Gary Thompson dirty dog

    Posts: 3,891
    East Wenatchee, WA
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    A few more wolves around the Eastern Washington boat launches might help thin out the gangs members?
    Just thinking.
    I remember when Oregon stopped letting folks shoot all the hawks because the rabbit and mice population were out of control.
    When the hawks got the rodent pops under control, the hawks went after the game birds.
    Around and around were go where it stops???????
  10. fredaevans Active Member

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    White City, Oregon, USA.
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  11. Upton O Blind hog fisherman

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    FAE, you are correct and thanks for posting that. With the price of gold far beyond historical highs you can bet that mines in watersheds are definitely not going away. Mining has a history of poor or non-performance in environmental safeguards agreed upon prior to permitting. While I am a strong "states' rights" person, on occasion, if it wasn't for the federal intervention, there could have been some disastrous projects across the country. State legislators are in the pockets of big money even more so than our elected officials in D. C. and that is where the voters have to step up. Its our responsibility to keep our voices heard to address the needs for "consumptive" uses of the resources within parameters that perserve, protect and enhance resources. The main issue with the wolves is the creative means of putting management of the animal back to Montana.
  12. Upton O Blind hog fisherman

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    Alex, as I grow older I'm thinking about taking history classes again so this time I can pay attention and really learn/appreciate it. I almost thought about going back to major in Constitutional history. I think that would be really interesting.
  13. fredaevans Active Member

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    White City, Oregon, USA.
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  14. Upton O Blind hog fisherman

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    Very interesting, and from their website:" Statement of Loan Policy - Due to our independence from Government assistance, federal loans are not made available to Hillsdale College students. Some students may qualify for institutional loans. Students are permitted to pursue any privately funded student loan as long as the loan amount is within institutional budgetary limits. However, since many lenders will not process student loans for students attending an institution without a federal school code, we provide information on quality alternative lenders with whom we have an established relationship."
  15. fredaevans Active Member

    Posts: 3,115
    White City, Oregon, USA.
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    Cool. I hadn't gone into that bit in there web site, but it appears I (basically) got it right from what I knew.
  16. Alex MacDonald Dr. of Doomology

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    Constitutional law would be a great subject to play with, but you'd be all over the board philosophically. It makes me wonder what Obama really did study, as his interpretation differs so radically from that of my colleagues; even those who taught it at UC Davis' School of Law.

    History is so fascinating, though-if it's taught well. If it's only war/treaty/timeline/war/treaty, it's a waste of time. Understanding history is a matter of understanding the people involved, and the times in which they lived.
  17. Noah Pefaur New Member

    Posts: 130
    Mill Creek, WA, USA.
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    Back to the wolves. I guess I am a little confused and concerned. I recently got my hunting permit for the first time in my life, i'm 38. I got a dog, got a shotgun and took Hunter's Safety (don't laugh, it was required and I actually learned a bit). Throughout the course hunting was framed as a wildlife management tool. One important highlight of this was a number of studies which showed that management of predators is a poor if not completely ineffective game species management strategy. Fair enough. Also highlighted was the idea of tradition and sportsmanship, an example would be not shooting ducks resting on the water. Wolves are a traditional part of the American west. Now, I haven't ever shot a coyote and frankly I don't get the point, but I'd jump up and down if someone told me I couldn't just on principle. I guess my question to everyone here is; If predator management is a poor game management strategy, and the last time it was open season on wolves people wiped out a significant identity of the American West, why is everyone in such a hurry to kill them? I'm not saying that anyone is wrong for wanting to hunt wolves, just that we should be sure of our argumentative premises and intentions before we throw a punch. By the way, the dog is a pretty well trained retriever now but I can't hit a clay to save my life. I'm hoping Roper will offer to take me out for grouse or pheasants.
  18. Jim Ficklin Genuine Montana Fossil

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    Noah,

    Welcome to the "hunting" persuasion. I "took" hunters safety" in 1958 . . . wasn't required, but Dad insisted (smartest man I've ever known.). Re: wolves . . . they have decimated elk & moose populations in many areas. I like to see them, but . . . they must be regulated. Think "Sea Lions below Bonneveille Dam." Placing one species under an impenetrable protective "dome" without regulation when that species is an Apex predator places "other" less-formidable species at-risk. Whom would you rather see regulate . . . licensed, ethical hunters who contribute to the various states' coffers via license fees or Fed hunters/trappers? I have friends back home in Montana who have suffered very ugly losses due to wolves. I have no idea as to how you earn your livelihood, but imagine a protected "predator" in that environment consuming "your" assets. The key to any game management is ethical & judicious regulation; currently, wolves are granted federal shelter to roam, wander, reproduce, and survive at-will . . . without regulation. What puzzles me is how folks can "hug one tree" without "hugging the entire forest." Nuff said . . .
  19. Upton O Blind hog fisherman

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    Welcome to hunting, like Jim I took my first firearms safety class early on, I think around 1956 or so and I still have that card. I've taken three other firearm safety courses, all required, including military training. I think its great that adults are required to do so. As for management of apex predators, I'm not sure of the context in which you speak. What I know is pumas, bears, and wolves are an increasing problem when their numbers are not limited. We can't hunt pumas or bears with dogs now and its illegal to hunt bears over bait. We will see increasing problems with both species over time given their need for expansive ranges and the intrusion of humans further into their habitat with development. There was a recent incident in Wenatchee with a young female puma and also another problem puma in East Richland a couple of days ago. Wolves attacked and killed a jogger in Alaska which I believe was the first documented mortality on a human by wolves in any State. There are also increasing interactions between grizzly bears in Montana as a function of increasing numbers and more people afield in their habitat. Anyway, Montana has some good biologists and they can handle the problems now. I'm hoping they can start limited hunting on the grizzlies next. Again, welcome to the sport of hunting.
  20. Alex MacDonald Dr. of Doomology

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    Excellent questions, Noah! The problem I have with reintroduction of wolves is that while they were once part of the landscape, they haven't been for almost a century. Given that fact, folks need to realize that the landscape has changed, and wolves are no longer part of it. Reintroduction has caused nothing but problems for both game species and livestock. it's not realistic to believe that humans and other apex predators can coexist within the same ecosystem, so you either remove the predators, or the humans (ain't gonna happen!). No ecosystem is ever static, either; due to the vagaries of weather if nothing else, it's like a pendulum, with populations swinging back and forth. Modern game management through hunting has proven to be an effective tool across the nation, which, as you learned, is why take limits are imposed on most game species based on population studies and hunter numbers. There are way fewer predator hunters out there than duck hunters, and that's one of the reasons why there are so many coyotes; it's not a poor tool, rather not applied with enough numbers.