Spey Casting VS. Overhead Casting

Discussion in 'Spey Clave' started by yuhina, Jun 18, 2012.

  1. yuhina

    yuhina Tropical member

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  2. yuhina

    yuhina Tropical member

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    Here is the brand new thread! Gentlemen...
    Let the discussion begins... keep it civil as much as you can :)

    Mark
     
  3. golfman65

    golfman65 Guest

    So what is the point or question?

    Back in the day on the T. I remember two older Japanese guys from CND who only overhead cast..with 100' heads...I've overhead cast everything from GPS lines to scandi's to skagits with tips....

    Dictated by the situation...not physic's or theory...

    bottom line is are you out there to fish or cast?
     
  4. yuhina

    yuhina Tropical member

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    Good point Golfman65,

    So may I ask, why you can overhead cast those lines easily?
    what line generate more momentum to cut though the wind?

    Dictated by situations as you said, Absolutely, But what line for what situation? There are a lot of people come to internet everyday just to ask what line to match what rod...

    Do you understand the point now? It's all about fishing in different conditions.

    Furthermore, do you know WHY you can't spey cast a reserve taper like the magnum taper below? This is a awesome overhead casting line in very windy conditions, but why you just can't spey cast it. WHY?

    If you don't care all of those interesting things related to real fishing conditions, well... maybe you want to show us your new reel photos here... I am really interested in that too!

    Mark
     
  5. yuhina

    yuhina Tropical member

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    Spey casting vs. overhead casting

    Spey casting is a method that can be applied to any kind of fly rods, single handed or double handed rods. In this post, I will focus on spey casting as a casting “method”, not necessary restricted to double handed rods, it also applied to single handed rods as well. I have 3 goals in mind.

    1), explain spey line design and how it related to basic casting mechanics. 2), difference and similarity between spey casting and overhead casting. 3), answer and explain the puzzle that posted by Steve (a.k.a. SSpey).

    Before I get into the debate and puzzle solving, I will like to provide some basic casting mechanics to put everyone on the same page. So bare with me on those basics. IF YOU ARE NOT INTERESTED IN SPEY CASTING MECHANICS AND LINE DESIGN... IT'S TIME TO CLICK AWAY!

    Spey casting defined as use water tension (as a mechanism) to change direction of cast. Water tension play the central role in spey casting and dictate the spey line design. Whether it is touch and go or sustain anchor casting style, all styles require water tension to produce a cast. Also, whether it is long-belly, mid-belly or shooting heads all require water tension to make a successful spey casting. Water tension generate the second key elements of spey casting to form – the D loop – the loop resemble “D” shape as the back cast formation end. (yes, there IS a back cast in any spey casting, it could be a small or big back cast, but, it must have a back cast to make the spey cast happen).

    D loop is the powerhouse of spey casting. There are different kind of “D” shape during different spey casting style. Low, high, long and short. Different “D” shape and different line taper will determine how much energy been stored and released during the next forward delivery. Some “D” store high energy, some “D” store low energy. Under a trained eye, identify the D shape and line taper will immediate determine how much energy will be released into the forward casting stroke.

    Line taper, see Al Buhr’s book. Page 22. Over years, there are several important and famous lines taper have been designed in North America. (to be continued)
    [​IMG]
     
  6. Rob Allen

    Rob Allen Active Member

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    All i read in these threads is Blah blah blah blah...

    double tapers are the best casting overhead lines for all i mean ALL floating line situations.. they cast the furthest with the least amount of effort. and no one makes one better than the cortland 444..

    this is all old stuff no new technology , science or math required

    best spey casting line

    the one that suits your style and loads the rod properly within the manufacturers recommendations...

    again no science math or technical gibberish required... just go fishing...

    There is no puzzle to solve.. it was all solved in the UK a century ago. it is just becoming a little bit more refined now ( same puzzle just the pieces are smaller now the picture is the same.


    about casting in the wind... if the wind is blowing enough to be an issue for your casting any changing lines is only going to give you a marginal advantage over another... if it's too windy to fish well it's too windy to fish well..


    on the other hand feel free to make a mountain out of a mole hill.

    spey casting is very simple to understand the ONLY puzzle is getting your brain to tell your body how to do it... everything else is hogwash.. no two people cast the same and that's ok.. anyone who enjoys how they fish is doing it wrong...
     
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  7. SSPey

    SSPey Member

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    Mark, when the theorizing / educating about my "puzzle" is over, take your gear to the pond, loop a sinktip of 12 gr/ft on a belly ending in 10 gr/ft, and cast it. If you can't get good turnover at most normal fishing ranges, what do you conclude? I say you haven't proven / disproven any theory, and have only proven a need to learn to control line speed.

    Before you go too far - please NOTE: This all started with a comment that Klickrolf made about turning over sinktips! My comment was made in that context. Don't twist it into something else, and if you do, then keep my name out of it. My "puzzle" was NEVER intended to be about "good" spey line design (witness death of the Accelerator). My comment was only to clarify the factors that control turnover. MASS isn't the only thing. (nor is VELOCITY the only other thing, which is why a 12 gr/ft sinktip can be turned over from a 10 gr/ft floating belly at most fishing ranges)

    The exercise of casting a heavier sinktip isn't too far afield from the reality of casting a normal line setup into a headwind - the caster needs to add velocity to the cast because MASS isn't enough.

    I think you know what a strawman is ... so please do your thing without taking my words out of context and twisting them into a strawman
     
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  8. yuhina

    yuhina Tropical member

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    Steve,

    For the record, this is your first post... and I am confused now...
    Is this a comment on my scandi head casting video? or this is a comment on Klickrolf's post.
    Give me a word and I will leave you alone.

    BTW, like yourself, I hate people twisting my words... never intended to twist your words, my friend!

    regards,

    Mark
     
  9. TrevorH

    TrevorH Active Member

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    I read it as a response to Klickrolf's post myself, and have wondered what the hell you are talking about since, but as the CND thread has been rich with strange moments, I thought you might just be attempting to raise the bar, and on that score, you have gained a point or two, but other very excellent efforts were made.
     
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  10. Ed Call

    Ed Call Mumbling Moderator Staff Member

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    I don't have any science and only limited first hand experience. I think Rob is right on for most situations. I do believe, and granted, with a switch rod in hand, not a "true" spey rod, that some of the compact heads outperform the trusted Cortland 444 DT. I find this from personal use on the beaches where I am using a two handed overhead casting stroke. When only using a single water haul into the backcast, allowing the rod to load and launching, that DT line is not as easy to manage and does not sail as far in the normal beach (with seemingly some wind all the time) environment. I think the more compact head is easier to keep aloft above the beach. I think that less line needs to be out and in the air during the casting process. I think the extreme weight forward lines load, launch and carry better. This can be a rocket taper, magnum taper, compact scandi or skagit, ambush; I think each does this specific job better than the traditional DT.

    Other than that, with a switch rod or spey rod, the double taper is a really fun line to cast for all situations except heavy tips and chickens (unless you cut it back...which I think alters it enough that you can't really call it a double taper).
     
  11. yuhina

    yuhina Tropical member

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    Trevor,

    OK, reread it and I think it is a response to Klickrolf's post too. My apology for mis-id the intension of Steve's first post.

    However, please read the second post from Steve, it get into a deeper confusion about how less weight can turn over heavy weight and brought up the accelerator which is basically a triangle taper head with a swelling front. The key reason I brought up the magnum taper is simply try to explain it is important to have a heavy body to turn over the lighter front taper (in Spey casting). all the minor front taper variation can't exceed the dominant role of main body head. this is how spey casting works and this is tightly related to the D loop formation. please keep in mind, dominate heavy body have to be heavier than the front taper... this is NOT mean you have to get a heavier front connection section to attached a lighter tip. You CAN have a lighter front connection section from the main body, then connected it to a heavier tip. BUT the main body have to be heavier and remain dominant during the turn over in D loop. please see Al Buhr's book image. see how different design but remain dominant in the "body section".

    9 weight saltwater head weight 240 grain total, less than 9 grain per foot; LC weight 13 grain. Go figure...

    Mark
     
  12. golfman65

    golfman65 Guest

    Man I gotta laugh sometimes reading your posts...they are without trying to pick on you Yuhina...ridiculus!!!

    The situation dictates what you may choose to do with your casts..Why pack ten lines to match every silly situation you seem to come up with...LEARN to cast properly and wind won't have the effect that you seem to struggle with..

    Back to the situation...I tend to use a head in the 45' range...learning to generate line speed cuts through the wind..and I've fished this line on rivers famous for their blow...grain weight can help you over compensate if that's needed...If I have a tight bank I might have to perry poke...If I have a big bar behind me I can reach out with an overhead cast to the whatever distance I choose...that's how the "situation" dictates what you do..not "let me pull out line D to fit my poor casting skill and this situation"

    There are a few lines that you can overhead cast but are crappy when spey casting...the 40+ comes to mind..WHY? because of the line design...they are designed for overhead casting not for spey casting...can you make it work...yeah but why? There are plenty of lines that work better and do both..

    The ridiculous thing is to keep acting like a little bitch who has to always argue and always get the last word in...which I'm sure you'll follow up with twenty more posts!!!
     
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  13. yuhina

    yuhina Tropical member

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    Golfman65,

    I am sure you have done your best to offer your knowledge to this site. And I see them all... Now... we are moving into the discussion probably not a little %$%& can understand... remember many years ago you are almost get banned from Speypages by swelling?

    Thank you for your input anyway.

    regards,

    Mark
     
  14. yuhina

    yuhina Tropical member

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    Ed,

    Good post.

    I feel the same. (same grain weight) Compact line are much easier to cut through the wind. Compact lines have relative less surface area per gain weight. This is the reason DT line require much physical effort when fighting the strong wind, compare to compact lines. Of course, this is only from my own experience.

    Mark
     
  15. Ed Call

    Ed Call Mumbling Moderator Staff Member

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    Thanks Mark, one thing the DT does exceptionally well is mending. Many of the extreme weight forward compacts really lack in the mending department. Overhead casting from the beach, as I've been known to do, really does not necessitate mending like when fishing a river. There are times when it is beneficial to throw a mend into a moving current seam off the beach too, speeding up or slowing down the movement of your baitfish pattern. A wise man taught me that lesson of reading the current and structure of the salt water like I would do in a river. Then he showed me what he was talking about and how to do it whilst fishing his Miyawaki Beach Popper.
     
  16. golfman65

    golfman65 Guest

    I find it odd that a couple of the Canadian sites ban swearing and some arguing even...I don't think anything gets settled that way and leads to more mis understandings and bad feelings then actually working out an issue or conflict...

    The nice thing about this board has been that you can say what you want for the most part and while some issues will never be resolved..i.e. beads on spey rods...at least there is discussion that isn't twarted...

    My problem with all of your posts is you never relent, even to guys who have way more experience, knowledge and skill...(and I'm not including myself in that as I'm not even close to those guys)

    An example of that is what your telling Ed in your last post...A shorter head might be easier in the wind when your a beginner but with time and skill a longer line can generate plenty of line speed to cut through the wind and be fished more effectively in some situations...
    I'm sure you've fished the mighty T. when it's been doing what it does best...blow!!!....at one time I would have packed a skagit in with my mid belly to switch over to in such wind...Time passes and you learn that you can generate the needed line speed with the longer lines and fish them in wind just as well and on such rivers they make more sense...

    The thing that I think your missing is..If you don't stick with the one line you'll never learn to fish it in all situations...I can say this from experience as I have way too many head wallets full of lines..
    Now they mostly sit in my shop as I stopped touting the suckers around have stuck with the one line...
    For me this has increased my skill as a caster as I no longer use the other lines as a bandage for my own lack of skill....The ability to use one line in wind, tight quarters etc. especially a longer line means you have to develop your casting abilities...

    I can remember arguing with Bruce and Timdog that a long (er) line couldn't be used in tight to a bank or under tree's etc. and they said and I have seen in person that not only can they be used in every situation but used effectively if so choosen...BUT that takes time on water and skill to learn and for what it's worth, that gives some of us much more pleasure then debating what line to use in each such situation and the whys of how it's designed!!!!

    Last , I shouldn't have used bitch, not very creative on my part..I apologize for that!!!
     
  17. yuhina

    yuhina Tropical member

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    Golfman65.

    Now, that is a good post! I appreciate that... I do agree what you said on most parts.
    Particularly fish one style and one line long enough until you discover the potential of that particular line.

    For people who don't know me... I take fly casting as serious as my professional career. period. I spey casting almost everyday indoors or outdoors. Why?, because there are so many challenges and potential to discover. If it is too simple and straight forward, then I won't get into it that much. Second, you might find me had some attitude in my posts, but please keep this in mind, I only and like to target the subjects itself, not taking it into personal. However, if I sensed people is teasing, I have to tease them back. As I said before, I am serious about fly casting as much as my career. I can shaking hands as friendly as you can imagine, teasing for teaser and fang to fang. This is my internet policy.

    Bruce K. is a interesting dude, he like to tease me, check out his last 100 posts. see how many of them are used to tease me? 30 % or more is direct toward me...what a honor huh? That's fine. I come to this site not only for educational information, but also for entertaining purpose... I do have a thick skin BTW.

    Remember I was teasing his heavy "energy saving" hammer theory. He is right about the "feel" part, but wrong about the "energy saving". That heavy hammer will FEEL easier if you need to hammer things all day. But what Bruce don't know is you are using THE SAME amount of energy to get the nails in regardless what hammer you use. The reason of light feel (from heavy hammer) is due to that we are using different kind of muscle/energy when swing heavy versus light hammer. Kenetic energy from the wrist versus potential energy from the forearm. In general, our forearm muscle is stronger than wrist muscle... that is the reason swing heavy hammer will make you feel easier.... Now you have it Bruce. Try to restraint yourself when you decided to tease me.

    Now what? study casting mechanic is not the end of fly fishing/casting, it's fun to have a little bit scientific principle, and a little general guidelines for every individual to fine tuning their cast style to suit different fishing situations.

    Regards,

    Mark
     
  18. fisshman26

    fisshman26 Member

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    Just don't want this one to disappear :)
     
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  19. Dan Page

    Dan Page Active Member

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    Mark,
    I'm not a physicist, but seems to me you are leaving out the affect of gravity here. The heavy hammer has gravity working on it more than the light hammer. The light hammer needs more muscle to use than the heavy hammer.
     
  20. Brady Burmeister

    Brady Burmeister Active Member

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    Time for a new vortex to get sucked into. Speaking of a vortex, let's talk about how its principles are applied to the snake roll.....
     

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