SRR: The demise of the auto industry....

Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by IveofIone, Nov 21, 2008.

  1. flybill

    flybill Purveyor of fine hackle, wine & cigars!

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    Ive, I respect your opinion, but disagree with the premise that we need to save the Big Three. Kent has summed it up pretty well...

    I don't buy many vehicles, I currently have a 2000 Toyota Tacoma 4x4 w/ over 130,000 miles on it and plan to drive it for a long time to come. I may eventually buy a second car, but for now will enjoy my paid off vehicle and pay down other debt and save some $$.

    I know that people may lose their jobs and feel for them as individuals, but just don't think we need to spend more money that our country can't afford, especially while we're fighting in two places half way around the world. I feel for each of them, but I myself have gone through it numerous time (4 times) and come out stronger on the end. If we are going to spend money, let's retrain the workers that are willing to be retrained.

    Last, here's Jon Stewarts perspective on it.. There is truth in comedy and ironcally I feel that he covers some of these events much better than the mainstream media! Just my opinion of course.

    <style type='text/css'>.cc_box a:hover .cc_home{background:url('http://www.comedycentral.com/comedycentral/video/assets/syndicated-logo-over.png') !important;}.cc_links a{color:#b9b9b9;text-decoration:none;}.cc_show a{color:#707070;text-decoration:none;}.cc_title a{color:#868686;text-decoration:none;}.cc_links a:hover{color:#67bee2;text-decoration:underline;}</style><div class='cc_box' style='position:relative'><a href='http://www.comedycentral.com' target='_blank' style='display:inline; float:left; width:60px; height:31px;'><div class='cc_home' style='float:left; border:solid 1px #cfcfcf; border-width:1px 0px 0px 1px; width:60px; height:31px; background:url("http://www.comedycentral.com/comedycentral/video/assets/syndicated-logo-out.png");'></div></a><div style='font:bold 10px Arial,Helvetica,Verdana,sans-serif; float:left; width:299px; height:31px; border:solid 1px #cfcfcf; border-width:1px 1px 0px 0px; overflow:hidden; color:#707070;'><div class='cc_show' style='position:relative; background-color:#e5e5e5;padding-left:3px; height:14px; padding-top:2px; overflow:hidden;'><a href='http://www.thedailyshow.com/' target='_blank'>The Daily Show With Jon Stewart</a><span style='position:absolute; top:2px; right:3px;'>M - Th 11p / 10c</span></div><div class='cc_title' style='font-size:11px; color:#868686; background-color:#f5f5f5; padding:3px; padding-top:1px; line-height:14px; height:21px; overflow:hidden;'><a href='http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index.jhtml?videoId=210904&title=clusterf#@k-to-the-poor-house' target='_blank'>Clusterf#@k to the Poor House - Dude, Where's My Car Industry?</a></div></div><embed style='float:left; clear:left;' src='http://media.mtvnservices.com/mgid:cms:item:comedycentral.com:210904' width='360' height='301' type='application/x-shockwave-flash' wmode='window' allowFullscreen='true' flashvars='autoPlay=false' allowscriptaccess='always' allownetworking='all' bgcolor='#000000'></embed><div class='cc_links' style='float:left; clear:left; width:358px; border:solid 1px #cfcfcf; border-top:0px; font:10px Arial,Helvetica,Verdana,sans-serif; color:#b9b9b9; background-color:#f5f5f5;'><div style='width:177px; float:left; padding-left:3px;'><a target='_blank' href='http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index.jhtml?videoId=166515&title=Barack-Obama-Pt.-1'>Barack Obama Interview</a><br /><a target='_blank' href='http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index.jhtml?videoId=167938&title=John-McCain-Pt.-1'>John McCain Interview</a></div><div style='width:177px; float:left;'><a target='_blank' href='http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index.jhtml?searchterm=Sarah+Palin&searchtype=site&x=0&y=0'>Sarah Palin Video</a><br /><a target='_blank' href='http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index.jhtml?searchterm=indecision+2008&searchtype=site&x=0&y=0'>Funny Election Video</a></div><div style='clear:both'></div></div><div style='clear:both'></div></div>

    Now I'm off to the river to practice my casting and swing a fly or two.

    Bill :cool:
     
  2. gt

    gt Active Member

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    i appreciate the down to earth explaination of the difference between take home pay and a benefit package. when folks start throwing numbers around, they should be a bit more concerned for accuracy than 'shock and awe' value. we always defined costs to business that were outside of actual wages as 'overhead'.

    now i would not argue that the B3 overhead is probably out of line with the rest of the auto industry, but in actual numbers, its not that far off from toyota or honda USA.

    so what is going on here?? products that no one seems to want to purchase, pretty straight forward. i can remember my first honda. there were no options lists, everything was already included. what that means is a single production line where every 'feature' was already incorporated. simplicity in production allowed the asian mfg's to overtake the B3 by streamlining their production.

    this is industrial engineering at work and it has sunk the B3 who simply can't shake an old style way of doing business in today's market place.

    so please, when you start to slam the workers, understand that just like you, they wanted a living wage and a benefit package. any of you who have recently been offered a bonus, wage increase, or an enhanced benefit package who stepped up and said 'no thanks', let all of us know about your generosity and concern for mankind!
     
  3. Gatorator

    Gatorator Member

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    Ive

    Why is it us old guys that have it figured out? :ray1:

    This whole deal with the housing crisis, two jobs per family to make ends meet, payments on credit cards and automobiles so people can have the newest and the best is so stupid.

    I'm 60 years old and have never made a car payment. I have paid cash for every vehicle I have ever personally owned. I have never had a credit card balance that was over due. I raised 4 kids through college and my wife never had to work, although she went back to teaching when our youngest daughter reached Jr. High.

    I knew my parents had worked all their lives for the house I grew up in and didn't expect to have one as good or better when I graduated from College. We started out in a single wide with a B&W TV and worked up.

    I may not be stylish or have a new BMW but I retired at 55 and have spend the time watching and enjoying my Children and Grandchildren growing up.

    A good friend is the Sales Manager at one of the local BMW Dealers. He tells me that more than half of the new Beamers sold are leased. That means that over half of the people driving newer BMWs really can't afford to own one. Probably the same with Mercedes.

    How stupid is renting a car. :beathead:

    Save your money until you can afford to buy something instead of putting it on credit. I have actually met people that were taking vacations on their Credit Card and were going to pay for the vacation down the line. :eek:

    How stupid is that? :beathead:
     
  4. Jim Wallace

    Jim Wallace Smells like low tide.

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    :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl: Thanks for that flybill! That was not only funny, but spot on!

    Still driving the beater 1988 Mazda B-2200 p/u with nearly 219,000miles on it that I paid cash for in Dec 1996. Bought it used from the original owner in great condition for only $4,000 with 96,700 on the odometer, and full service records.
    I have beat the hell out this truck, driven it hard, backed it into trees in the dark, been backed into by little old ladies in the post office parking lot, valves have been clicking for the last 120,000m and burns a little oil now, but still running like a champ.
    I have also subjected it to beach living for the last 12 years, often drive it on the beach, never wash or wax it, and the finish is only starting to show the neglect. I can't seem to kill it.
    This truck was made in Japan before Ford took over Mazda production.

    But I'm looking for a newer rig.
     
  5. 2506

    2506 Active Member

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    I'd agree with that statement as well. I've got a 97 F-250 that tows just about anything I put behind it. Gas mileage sucks, but I knew that when I bought it. The only caveat to all this is: it's only a matter of time before Toyota finds a solution to the problem.
     
  6. Ed Call

    Ed Call Mumbling Moderator Staff Member

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    flybill, timely video spot.
    I drive a 1999 Nissan Pathfinder that has been paid for forever. Before that one I had a 1997 that got totalled in an accident. My wife and I walked away, each with one scratch. Mine from the airbag to the face, hers from her elbow hitting the door/window. The velocity of the crash told me then that I wanted another. I have over 200k on it and before that 1997 Pathfinder I drove a 1994 Saturn SL2 which got 30+mpg took me to every mountain top recreation site I wanted through rain, ice and snow. When I sold that car I regretted not keeping it for a commuter. I've had car payments and that really sucks. I plan on driving this pathfinder as long as mechanically possible, speaking of which I need a nice tuneup and some preventive maintenance to keep it fresh and running.

    None of that really adds much, but I drive what I can afford, what seems safe and what will last. If the Big Three don't last much longer as is they will become leaner, meaner, greener and will emerge on the other side in a better place. Industries must evolve over time, just like our financial system. Now may be that time. Drive what you like, rent, lease own, payments or buy it outright, your choice makes a statement from you if you realize it or not.
     
  7. TC

    TC I live with wind knots

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    Not a bad idea Mumbles. Being in the hotel business, this would certainly have a personal affect on me. that being said, we utilize that quite a bit with meetings. and even thought it would impact my line of work, I am all for it. You would not believe the government waste I see towards the end of the year. If an agency doesn't spend the money they have in their budget, they don't get that amount of money the next year, so they come up with useless meetings just to get rid of that money. There has got to be a better way.

    Here is a question, How many of you do not pay a deductible or a co-pay when you or a family member goes to the doctor? Congressional members and UAW workers I know don't. Foreign Auto workers make a good hourly pay, but have to pay co-pays etc.... that is a load of bucks from an employers stand point. My company is eating $100K due to rising medical costs and not pass that increase onto us, which I think is pretty cool.

    this year, I have made the policy in our house that we buy nothing until we have the cash for it. That also means fly fishing supplies dang it.
     
  8. raymckinnon

    raymckinnon MADDOG

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    I too own one of Detroit's "low quality" vehicles. It's a "94" Ford Explorer, my "fishing rig", as well as my daily driver, this vehicle has 268,000+ miles on it and it still runs like a top. Hell I'll take that kind of "low quality" any day of the week. I would also be willing to bet that the people installing those nuts and bolts weren't getting $150,000 a year for the privilege of building it.

    Ray
     
  9. cj6530

    cj6530 Member

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    Benefits packages above wages are not overhead. A retirement package including pay (pension) and medical should be included as wage. The 75-85 dollar cost per hour is not overhead. It all depends how a company structures compensation. A worker making a wage of 75 an hour with zero pension plan needs to put 25 of it into an IRA in order to have a pension plan. Also, of course I would not say no to increased pay and benefits. But if I then expected you the tax payer to pay for it I would expect to get slammed.
     
  10. Kent Lufkin

    Kent Lufkin Remember when you could remember everything?

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    Best and Worst
    Top five and bottom five vehicles by resale value, with the percentage of the vehicle's sticker price that is expected to be retained after five years of ownership.

    Top

    1. BMW AG Mini Cooper 59%
    2. Toyota Yaris 57%
    3. Toyota Scion xB 56%
    4. Toyota Scion xD 55%
    5. Honda Fit 55%

    Bottom

    1. Ford Expedition V8 19%
    2. Mercury Mountaineer V8 20%
    3. Lincoln Town Car V8 20%
    4. Dodge Durango V8 20%
    5. GMC Savannah Van V8 20%

    Source: Kelly Blue Book, November 19, 2008

    K
     
  11. constructeur

    constructeur Active Member

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    He isn't as the pay in Spokane is different than here. Commercial scale in Seattle is $34.59 with forman and supers making a bit more, respectively, and the union residential/small commercial scale is infact $25ish as Jesse has stated.
     
  12. Be Jofus G

    Be Jofus G Banned or Parked

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    I guess if you ar 5'2'' 115 lbs you can at least fit into a car with one helluva resale value :rofl::rofl::rofl:
     
  13. cj6530

    cj6530 Member

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    Jesse said that he pays the workers 25 bucks and hour but then he(jesse) has to charge more than that to customers because he has to cover Pension, State and Federal taxes. I might be reading it wrong....but that implies getting paid much more than 25 bucks an hour. That implies take home is 25 bucks an hour. I may be wrong put thats how I read it. Point being, dude at microsoft who gets paid 100K a year. The employer doesn't "cover" state and federal income taxes. In the end microsoft dude takes home 60K a year but does still get "paid" 100K a year.
     
  14. Kent Lufkin

    Kent Lufkin Remember when you could remember everything?

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    Jesse may well pay his employees $25 an hour. But I'm betting that's a gross hourly wage in pre-tax dollars.

    In Washington, employers are required to deduct calculated amounts for federal taxes and half of FICA and Medicare from an employee's gross pay, as well as any additional amounts for the employee's contribution to health care and retirement, resulting in a net amount which is the employee's take-home amount. Since these amounts vary considerably from person to person, it's more likely that the Jesse's employee's net hourly wages are closed to $15-$18 depending on their individual deductions.

    Employers pick up the other half of the FICA/Medicare amount. Employers are also responsible for paying whatever Federal taxes may be required based on how their business is organized (Corporation, S-Corp, LLC, etc.) plus FUTA, state B&O and unemployment taxes. These amounts are NOT deducted from an employee's check and are thus overhead on the part of the business, and subtracted from gross sales (along with other costs like wages, inventory, tools, materials, marketing, etc.) to determine pre-tax income.

    K
     
  15. Evan Burck

    Evan Burck Fudge Dragon

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    good thing i just bought a Scion XB then :) 30mpg, almost as much cargo room as my cherokee had, and best resale value.
     
  16. Kent Lufkin

    Kent Lufkin Remember when you could remember everything?

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    Clearly your experience with the new generation of small cars is lacking.

    A good fishing friend has a new Honda Fit which has relatively small exterior dimensions as well as delivering gas mileage in the mid 30s both on the open road and commuting. The inside is a different story. At 6' tall and 190 pounds, I not only fit comfortably in the shotgun seat but find it positively luxurious, replete with so much headroom that even wearing a hat, I never brushed the headliner.

    With the back seats folded flat (and allowing sleeping room for one comfortably, two in a pinch), it holds all our fishing and camping gear for a couple days at a basin lake as well as our Super Fat Cats.

    It's no wonder that the Wall Street Journal recently named the new, second-generation Fit as 'simply the best car on the road in America today, at any price.'

    K
     
  17. Jergens

    Jergens AKA Joe Willauer

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    iagree kent, even in my girlfriends american made focus hatchback, i fit just fine at 6'5" 250. its not as roomy as my truck, but useable inside storage space is much more than my f-150 extended cab.

    evan, you need to pimp your xb like this, and you'll actually be able to tow a driftboat!
    [​IMG]
     
  18. Ed Call

    Ed Call Mumbling Moderator Staff Member

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    Those tires are a hoot, they are not even close to fitting in the wheel wells. I'd like to see that thing bottom the wheel wells out on the tires going over bumps. No self respecting fisherman would be caught dead in that rig. That is a bigger POS than my crappy old pathfinder.
     
  19. Evan Burck

    Evan Burck Fudge Dragon

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    haha... that's bad ass. i have the new body style, so it doesn't look anything like that one.
     
  20. Mike Etgen

    Mike Etgen Not Quite A Luddite, But Can See One From Here

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    Rather than looking to the taxpayers for a bailout, the so-called Big Three should be working deals to be purchased by Northrop-Grumman, Lockheed, Martin Marietta, Haliburton, General Dynamics, or Raytheon.

    That should alleviate any concern about the lack of American-made industrial capacity the next time our leaders want to launch a military venture. World War II was the last "good war" this country has been involved in, and an added and possibly unexpected bonus was that it finally pulled us out of the depression.

    Now war is just another form of commerce, and a lucrative one at that. Since the end of WWII, with most of the industrial capacity of the world destroyed, we've been the arms merchants to the world, and pretty much eliminated the competition, except on very limited terms. We had the Japanese and Germans by the throats, but needed them to help us counter the presumed communist threat, otherwise, they wouldn't have been allowed to re-invent and rebuild their economies. By allowing (or confining) them to concentrating their efforts on consumer industries, we created one of those unintended consequences - they became competitors for us in the those markets. Unfortunately, without the need to support a massive defense effort, from R & D on up, they got really good at it, and when the slumbering giant (China) woke up, they became yet another counterbalance to the Soviet Union, and another beneficiary of our willingness to shoulder the security (and arms) work for the rest of the world.

    If Bush and company hadn't overreached, maybe the economy wouldn't have gone so far south, so fast. Now, he'll go down as the first president in history to launch a war that outlasted its benefit to the economy.

    The question is whether the Big Three will be allowed to be casualties. I suspect not. They may suffer the temporary inconvenience and messiness of a Chapter 11 reorganization. But, look at how the airlines capitalized on 9/11. One by one, they've gutted their labor agreements, dropped their retirement obligations, cut salaries and staff, and given up even the pretense of serving the consumer. The Big Three are just taking the next step. If they play their cards reasonably right, they'll get all that done AND collect from the taxpayers. If they follow my suggestion, they can have all that, AND have an open line to government (taxpayer) funding in perpetuity, just like Northrop-Grumman, Lockheed, Martin Marietta, Haliburton, General Dynamics, or Raytheon. It'll be patriotic then, and for our national security.

    BTW - no disrespect to anyone employed by any of the above companies or their supplier or subsidiaries. I worked in the defense industry myself for almost twenty years, and I was grateful for the opportunity. It fed my family and put a roof over our heads.