SRR: The demise of the auto industry....

Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by IveofIone, Nov 21, 2008.

  1. Gertie's Pa

    Gertie's Pa New Member

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    Ive,
    I'll give you a 9+ but I also feel the industry brought it on themselves. The last real innovation to come out of Detroit was fuel injection and radial tires. And those ideas probably came form Japan. Yes, we need the auto industry but we also need innovation and creative thinking as well as competition. Ford has modified the internal combustion engine to run on hydrogen gas. Where is it? I would seriously consider a compressed air vehicle. Where is it? Tesla has electrics that get 200+ miles per charge. The technology is there and for some reason these bastards are sitting on it. If they build it (electrics, hydrogen, compressed air, natural gas-propane) the infrastructure will follow.
     
  2. raymckinnon

    raymckinnon MADDOG

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    This thread has opened up some truly interesting debate, and some very differing opinions on the subject. Just to throw some more wood on the fire here is a link to an article that should further the debate.
    It's really interesting to see all the differing points of view on this subject.
    Peace Out & Tight Lines.:clown:

    http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article21302.htm
     
  3. jessejames

    jessejames Flyslinger

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    In regards to the hourly pay issue: my point was that the talking heads are saying the "average United Auto Worker makes $75.00 per hour"
    I was trying to point out that the $75.00 includes all the current pension and medical for the working employee PLUS a huge amount to fund an account that will pay all of the old retired pensiions and medical. Once that fund is fully funded (early 2010) then this pay amount will be reduced to around 50.00 per hour.
    THE POINT IS THIS THE WORKER TAKES HOME AROUND 30.00 PER HOUR LESS TAXES ON HIS CHECK.
    The MISINFROMATION IS THIS: every auto worker is taking home $150.000 per year on his paycheck. some body in Podunk America thinks "boy I would sure like to have that job". This spin makes the rest of the population in the US think the real problem is the workers make too much.
    If we get the facts right the US auto industry with good union jobs is not paying any more even with benefits than the foriegn manufacturers are paying in the US.
    I read this weekend that the number of auto industry jobs in Michigan has gone from 350,000
    to 195,000 from 2000 to now. The big three have made changes, they have leaned down, they have closed the old non-productive plants and the UAW has made concessions and "let" these things happen. I really believe that they were on the road to recovery, albeit slowly, before the credit crunch stopped people from buying and the corporations from borrowing to finance their everyday operations.
    It is an interesting time in which we live. The problems like our lives are way more complicated than there were 50 years ago. It will be interesting to see what happens in the next weeks and months.
    Blessings
    jesse
     
  4. Be Jofus G

    Be Jofus G Banned or Parked

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    Doubtfull. I have had opportunities to drive most of the cars you have mentioned. For 1-2 person commuter cars they are fine. I had a brand new Pilot sitting in the driveway about 6 months ago. We had to get rid of it because my knees were literally in the dashboard when the kid's carseats were strapped in. (6' 200ish lbs) I've driven pretty much every new honda model for an extended period of time over the last 5 years. With the exception of the 4 door accord and the oddesy that I have now, It was "knees meet dashboard". As far as toyota models go, dunno, never owned one. The "fit" is a nice ride for a small car and an exceptional commuter with decent trim and accesory packages. It sucks ballz for a family of four.
     
  5. IveofIone

    IveofIone Active Member

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    I am impressed with the civility of this thread and the many astute observations of the contributors. Kudos to all.

    Ray, I read the link you provided and was amused by Romney's observations. Clearly the beleaguered rich have suffered from the "...damaging labor practices of the 20th century"....
    With the middle class all but gone and CEOs making 400 times the average wage of workers the rich have far more than ever but still feel put upon. In Nancy Pelosi's interveiw with Bob Scheifer yesterday she was clearly not amused that the Detroit execs came to Washington with nothing more than a private jet and a big carpet bag. No plan, no solution, just give us the money. She pointed out that they take home millions from companies that lose billions and wondered out loud what is wrong with that picture. She also noted that they make more money in a month than a minimum wage earner makes in a lifetime. They have the fiduciary responsibility of maintaining one of this country's primarily sources of industrial might but have been letting it slip away because of their own laziness and greed. Sadly this tendency seems endemic to much of industry these days. The old model of work hard and do well is broken. Now it is simply do well-at any cost.

    Once again, I am astounded that Detroit has not canceled their racing programs. Collectively they must invest over a billion dollars a year in what is basically a colloquial enterprise. The cars they race are no longer Fords, Dodges or Chevys but COTs. Cars Of Tomorrow that are spec built chassis and bodies with an identifying grill decal on the front. These are not technologically advanced rigs that test ideas for the next generation of production cars but instead dinosaurs of an earlier age. Crap-they are still using carberaters-a device so old that I can no longer spell it! What the hell does running a car around a track making left turns at 190mph while getting 2-3mpg have to do with our current energy problems? Converting all of those multi million dollar racing factories with their dynos, CNC equipment and wind tunnels over to mileage and efficiency gains would make far better sense and channel some superb talent into a far more productive direction.

    Well, I have to get into my poorly built 15 year old American built pickup and drive across the snow covered mountains to pick up fixins' for Thursdays dinner so I'm outta' here.

    Happy Thanksgiving to all, Ive
     
  6. Be Jofus G

    Be Jofus G Banned or Parked

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    Happy thanksgivin man! :thumb:
     
  7. Kent Lufkin

    Kent Lufkin Remember when you could remember everything?

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    Your earlier post only mentioned that if you were over 5'2" a new subcompact was a poor choice. Had you simply stated that you were looking for a car for a family of four in the first place I wouldn't have responded as I did.

    K
     
  8. sportsman

    sportsman Active Member

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    FYI: The Big 3 CEO's annual salary: 14,16 and 21 million[rounded off] and they are losing billions. The president of Toyota of America makes a lousy 1 million dollars per year but they posted profits of 4 billion this year!
     
  9. Be Jofus G

    Be Jofus G Banned or Parked

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    My fault :rofl: Sometimes I fail to remember that not all of the rest of the world drives around with child car seats the size of lazy boy recliners behind them. :thumb:
     
  10. Kent Lufkin

    Kent Lufkin Remember when you could remember everything?

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    Oh boy, do I ever remember those days! My youngest is headed off to college and our road trip to the beach last summer with her, my wife and I and the dog meant cramming our stuff in a Rocket Box on the roof of our Subaru Outback. I can't imagine doing that with 2 little kids plus all the stuff they require. Better you than me, I guess!

    K
     
  11. Be Jofus G

    Be Jofus G Banned or Parked

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    :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: I dunno I still have another 15 years untill I have to fork over college tuition. Congrats on the youngest man!
     
  12. Evan Burck

    Evan Burck Fudge Dragon

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    Like I was saying in earlier on in the thread, the Scion XB is an amazingly impressive car on so many levels. One of the things that's the most surprising is how much room the interior has. I've never had more leg room in any vehicle of any size. For the past couple years it has also been the most popular vehicle amongst NBA players because of the leg and head room. An overall pretty unexpected feature for a compact car

    plus, since last year, they no longer look like a rolling kitchen appliance:
    [​IMG]
     
  13. jcnewbie

    jcnewbie Member

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    They are also work great for car bombs and terrorist transport vehicles in places like Iraq & Afghanistan….especially the white ones!!!:rolleyes:
     
  14. Ed Call

    Ed Call Mumbling Moderator Staff Member

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    Evan, there is a lot of room in a hearst too, I just can't see my style free self driving one of those. That would require a car payment and I'll have to drive my crappy pathfinder until death do us part.
     
  15. steelydan

    steelydan Newb seeking wisdom

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    Let's not forget the role of the consumer in this process.
    Remember, you vote with your dollars.
    Not long ago, GM was selling every Suburban, Pickup, and Hummer they could produce and for a very handsome profit(much more profit than the economy cars)
    Then those same consumers got a wiff of $4+ gas and panicked.
    Now, you can't give those cars away and the company is stuck with the factories, production lines, and personnel(well, those are easy to get rid of).
    These companies responded to consumer demand, not the other way around.
    If you buy shit, that's what they'll make and sell you.
     
  16. Sloan Craven

    Sloan Craven Active Member

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    We can't get rid of industry and expect to compete in the global marketplace.
     
  17. Evan Burck

    Evan Burck Fudge Dragon

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    i envy those without a car payment... unfortunately a few years ago i made the mistake of buying a Saab 9-3 while I was living in florida that fell apart and barely ran after a couple years (thanks GM!). it eventually had so many problems that it was worth far less than I owed on it, and somehow toyota took it on trade without checking it out. there was no way i was going to be able to sell it (to get rid of a payment), so i got very lucky in acquiring my new toyota. i'll deal with a car payment for now i guess. and pathfinders are great! i'd trade my situation i'm in for a pathfinder with no payment!
     
  18. IveofIone

    IveofIone Active Member

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    Burck, I have no doubt that the Scion you have is an excellent and highly practical vehicle. In fact I would love to have one if it was all-wheel drive as it would be an excellent replacement for my aging Explorer. (Which was totaled last year and I bought back from the insurance company for $330 with only minor cosmetic damage).

    But when I was a kid growing up and going to auto shows in the 50s, the car of the future was always depicted as a swoopy machine, often with a glass roof and fins and some magical powerplant. Now fast forward 50 years and the products are considerably more tame than we envisioned 50 years ago. But we never in our wildest dreams envisioned cars like the Scion, Honda Element or the Nissan Cube. Cars that somehow appear to have been styled by emulating UPS boxes that have been left out in the rain!

    There is a reason though that UPS boxes aren't shaped like Ferrari's. The cube is so good at providing passenger space, headroom, cargo capacity and utility that it can't be beat. Here function trumps form.

    Ive
     
  19. raincityrod

    raincityrod Guest

  20. raincityrod

    raincityrod Guest