SRR: The demise of the auto industry....

Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by IveofIone, Nov 21, 2008.

  1. Evan Burck Fudge Dragon

    Posts: 6,440
    Duvall, wa
    Ratings: +1,618 / 2
    so we all owe roughly $24,000 for something the public screamed at congress not to do. joy

    remember, we hired these dolts (congress). they're supposed to work for us. what the hell are they doing, and who are they working for now? i have my ideas about what's going on... but apparently it makes me a "conspriacy theorist." :hmmm:
  2. raincityrod Guest

    Posts: 0
    Ratings: +0 / 0
  3. Evan Burck Fudge Dragon

    Posts: 6,440
    Duvall, wa
    Ratings: +1,618 / 2
    G Edward Griffin is fantastic. his book "The Creature From Jeckyll Island" is a book that really opened my eyes to a lot of things. I think anyone who wants to understand our system should read it. But I've found that if you do your homework and read a lot, then come to a conclusion that isn't part of the "official story," you're labeled a wack job conspiracy theorist. go figure
  4. martyg Active Member

    Posts: 981
    The world at large
    Ratings: +74 / 0
    I can't believe that this industry will go away if we do not bail them out. If they go Chapter 11 it will force them to re evaluate how they do business, and scuttle their union contracts.

    My personal belief is that people need to take responsibility - and that includes management and unions. Shareholders, unions and management should have been looking 10 - 50 years down the road - looking at trends and innovation and forcing that direction, even if it meant short term pain and no immediate gain. Instead everyone lined up to the feeding trough and feasted. The fact that the CEOs flew to DC without a plan - just with their hands open - tells me that they are not responsible leaders.

    Those of us that own and run our own companies generally have no sympathy for this level of management. We rely on all people connected with our business to help us grow, and to look for solutions. We need to adapt to stay alive. It is something that American management, and American workers, have forgotten - and that is why we cannot compete in the global marketplace. Foreign car manufactures tend to build companies that will last generations. Our auto industry just looks to the next quarter.

    Ultimately, we live in a quasi-free market society (with select groups like farmers to ranchers to drug companies getting government subsidies). We have impressed to the rest of the world that this is the best system. And in that world there will be winners and losers. We loosing right now because people - in general - want instant gratification - they have forgotten what it is like to suffer - they want a 40 hour work week and be able to drive a new pick-up every two years and have a driveway with a boat and four-wheeler in it. Meanwhile, people in other countries are one generation removed from being in a place where starvation was real. They work 60 + hours a week, because that is the way that they are hard-wired. And at the end of the day they thank their boss for their job instead of giving them crap for cutting their break by five-minutes.

    Like I said, "And in that world there will be winners and losers." Which is fine - because someone needs to ask the question, "Sir, would you like fries with that?"
  5. FT Active Member

    Posts: 1,242
    Burlington, WA
    Ratings: +102 / 0
    I'm surprised that with all the stuff herein about the 3 US car companies and their "poor quality, too large, poor gas milage, etc. vehicles" being the reason they aren't selling that not a person has reported the fact that all car companies selling cars in the US have seen sales drop be between 22% and 38% in September and October. Yes, even the Honda and Toyota wonder cars of Japan has seen sales drop, Honda down 24% and Toyota down 22% in October. Clearly there is more going on than just the vehicles being produced by the US car makers, since their sales are down in October the same as the imports.

    I'm also suprised there hasn't been anyone mention Germany putting together a bailout for BMW, Mercedes, and Porche/Audi/VW because the worlwide sales of their vehicles has dropped over 30%.

    As far as US makers not producing cars with decent gas milage, what about cars like the Ford Focus, Chevy Cavalier, Chevy Cobalt, Dodge Caliber, etc. All of these get over 30 MPG. Heck, even the Corvette gets decent milage (and lots of power and performance that is world-class too boot) of 25 MPG on the hwy. Chrysler's 300 C (and the Dodge Charger R/T and Challenger R/T) with the 5.7L Hemi (it now has 370 bph) gets 25 MPG, which is in the same league as the Hond Accord and Camry V6.

    Plus, if one has a need to a pickup that can tow or haul a trailer, carry a load, or carry a pickup camper, one needs a truck that has a tow capacity higher than 5,000 lbs and a load capacity of 2,000 lbs or more. And the only import truck that will fit the bill for tow capacity is the Toyota Tundra (it doesn't cut it for load capacity though since it is a 1/2 ton), and it only gets 16 MPG, which is less than the US full-sized trucks with gasoline engines. The smaller trucks won't do the job. Some of the smaller ones might be able to pull the load if the tow weight is 5,000 lbs and they are equipped with the largest offered V6, but stopping could be a totally different story. And if one is going to put a pickup camper on his truck, a 3/4 ton is pretty much needed to have sufficient load capacity and axle strength so one doesn't overtax the rear axles, wheel studs, and springs. Since there are no imported 3/4 ton pickups, it leaves the US makers.

    Like some others have mentioned, I drive two supposedly poor quality vehicles. A 1987 Dodge 3/4 ton 4x4 pickup that has over 360,000 miles on it (I put a new engine in it last November because the rest of the truck is in fine shape and a new engine is a lot cheaper than a new truck). Granted it doesn't get the greatest gas mileage, but it is a 3/4 truck with a 4 barrel carburated engine. And I can buy a lot of gas with the difference between the $3200.00 it cost me to have a new engine put in that has a 7 yr, 70,000 mile warrenty and the price of a new truck.

    The other is a 1989 Jeep Cherokee with 264,000 miles on it that doesn't burn oil, has cylinder compression within specs, and that I put a new clutch in this August. I maintain them with 3,000 mile oil and filter changes. regular washings, treat them to a once a year wax job with Dupont New Finish (recommended by the manager of a body shop I know), change the gear oil in the axles every 40,000, flush the radiator every 2 years, change the transfer case oil every 40,000, change the manual trans oil in the Jeep every 50,000 and change the auto trans fluid in the Dodge pickup every 30,000. Both of these will go many more miles, expecially the Dodge with its new engine.
  6. Chris Johnson Member: Native Fish Society

    Posts: 1,786
    Bellingham Wa.
    Ratings: +316 / 1
    Just want to make a few points about wages and legacy costs. The CEO of toyota makes about 1mil a year, the big 3 CEO'S make 15-20 mill.

    The workers have dedicated funds contributed to pension and health plans, the Ceo's & upper management do not, thier costs come off the top. when they figure their legacy cost they lump them all together so it is skewed toward insolvency.

    If the health care coverage is costing them so much, why have they not jumped on the national health care band wagon? We, the american people pay close to 7k per capita for health care, ( twice as much as most industrialized nations), so guys like Bill Frist can make billions.

    The republicans are lickn' their chops cause they can finally bust the UAW. The rise of the middle class was directly related to the rise of labor unions. When Ronald Reagan took office the US was the world leader in exporting finished goods, the leading importer of raw materials and the worlds leading creditor nation. Now after 28 yrs of supply side economics, those numbers are reversed. We are the leading debtor,exporter of raw materials and importer of finished goods. By the way, Ronnie ( that union bustn' SOB) was at one time the head of the screen actors guild.

    Someone needs to grab hank paulson by the short hairs and tell him to loan some of that money to the big 3. Then grab the big 3 by the short hairs and tell them to start trimming some fat and build some high milage cars. I'm sure the Unions will come to the table, if it means their jobs.

    We have dug ourselves a big ass hole, and it's not going to be fun digging out, everyone will have to feel some pain. So stay involved, " The price of apathy in public affairs, is to be ruled by EVIL MEN".
  7. gt Active Member

    Posts: 2,616
    sequim, WA
    Ratings: +6 / 0
    well it must be getting bad, they cut tiger woods 8,000,000 endorsement contract for standing in front of buicks. but, it won't be really bad until they shut off the billions going to nascar. when that happens, we should all be prepared for change.
  8. raincityrod Guest

    Posts: 0
    Ratings: +0 / 0
  9. Zane Wyll Member

    Posts: 452
    anacortes, WA.
    Ratings: +0 / 0
    I have follow this post closely and have read some very good thoughts and ideas. So here is my 2cents and I have been in the Auto industry since 1996. Were is the technology that we all know exists? We all know the gas Company's are making record profits per quarter 13 to 25 billion in three months? Why? For years the Big Three have been in the sheets with the oil company's burying technology or recommending specific oil company's products on your gas caps. Talk about conspiracy this is the biggest fleecing of America. Why don't the Oil company's Bailout the Auto industry, That has made them so rich, just a thought.
  10. raymckinnon MADDOG

    Posts: 16
    Ratings: +0 / 0
  11. raymckinnon MADDOG

    Posts: 16
    Ratings: +0 / 0
  12. jessejames Flyslinger

    Posts: 1,853
    Show Low, Arizona
    Ratings: +343 / 3
    I really enjoy reading the original thought provoking opinions in a thread like this. There are some however that must not have any of their own opinions, so they link us to some body elses ideas of what is happening. You guys need to think for your selves and not sign up for somebody elses rant. What do you think in your own words?
  13. gt Active Member

    Posts: 2,616
    sequim, WA
    Ratings: +6 / 0
    if you click on 'home' you will find that the 'information clearing house' is some guy with a web site. he has an opinion same as you and me, nothing more or less. but most of all, the guy has NO solutions!
  14. raincityrod Guest

    Posts: 0
    Ratings: +0 / 0
    Information and data are a form of wealth. Some, are richer than others in that coin. We each see our world, and live in it, from a different point of reference, life experiences and information, either sought out or discovered by accident. If someone points me in the direction of an articulate dialogue in a subject of interest to me, " thank you " for having added to my store of wealth, and if the story is compelling enough, could possibly change the course of my life.
    In: 02 when The Bush Regime was getting revved up I bought a little farm up in B.C. all cash
    info: exchange rate was 1US=1.47CA, a good deal and excellent potential hedge.
    In: 04 sold income properties.
    In: 06 sold primary residence and went to cash.
    In: 08 slowly exchanging US $ to CA $ exchange rate 1US= 1.20- 1.29 CA not as good as 02 but I'll take it, those 25 cent pieces add up.
    Info: CA has one of the highest rated banking systems on the planet, no deficit, 2nd largest country on the planet, with a shit load of commodities, oil ( largest exporter to the US ) nat. gas, coal, copper,gold,timber, you get the picture, lovely people, and the fishing is not to shabby either.
    The choices that I have made in the last seven years all stem from the information gleaned
    from every imaginable source.
    Thoughts and ideas, no matter where there points of origin, are currency, worth far more than the accumulating paper ( dollars ) in our treasury, and nationalized banks. We are in a deflationary spiral at the moment... that will change, all things do... and when it does, all hell will break loose.
    In my opinion... who knows... we all place our bets... and let'm roll
    Any threads,forums,blogs,links are most appreciated... Thanks
    That's a bit of my story... What's yours ???????
  15. raymckinnon MADDOG

    Posts: 16
    Ratings: +0 / 0
    On a daily basis I subscribe to 26 different Newsletters, these newsletters offer a wide range of differing views and outlooks on many subjects.
    While I certainly don't agree with all of them, once in a while I find an article or story that so accurately reflects my own views or opinions on a given subject that I don't mind posting a link to that particular piece. While it may seem intellectually lazy to some, I find that it frees up what can sometimes large blocks of time that I can put to far better use in my opinion, such as fishing.
    If you are so offended by the links that some of us post I would suggest a better solution, rather than to go into "personal attack" mode would be to just not follow links.

    Peace Out & Tight Lines,

    Ray :thumb:
  16. sashjo Member

    Posts: 531
    Lakewood, WA.
    Ratings: +4 / 0
    No links here.
    IMHO, as a Taxpayer, I don't want to bail out the "beg 3". I am tired of hearing that a company is "too big to fail." This is America. We don't reward failure. We are capitalists not socialists. The only real answer is BK. Lets get back to individual and corporate responsibility.
  17. raymckinnon MADDOG

    Posts: 16
    Ratings: +0 / 0
    While you are correct that this is just some guy's website it is far from just his own views that are presented. If you look deep enough you will find that there are articles that reflect many differing viewpoints. I don't believe that anywhere on the site does it suggest that this is a site offering "solutions" to anything, just that the site contains " News you won't find on Fox news or CNN" which I find to be true in most cases.
    It seems to me that the "tone" of your post suggests that you don't necessarily agree with some of the articles you found on this site. Following are links to a couple of other sites from which I also get newsletters, perhaps if you follow these links you will find opinions that you find more agreeable and in line with your particular worldview.
    While these are also places (following) that I find opinions of interest, they just aren't opinions, or "solutions" that I personally agree with, although both these individuals continuously offer their idea of "solutions" to a wide array of issues. Following you will find links to the sites of a "couple of guy's" with websites:,
    Peace Out & Tight Lines,

    Ray :thumb:
  18. gt Active Member

    Posts: 2,616
    sequim, WA
    Ratings: +6 / 0
    after 8, long, dark years of george w bush we were treated to two longer years of an unending campaign. enough shit has been shovelled during this time to sink the globe. so, you are correct, i am sick and tired of folks just complaining, inventing stories, lying by folks like the drug addict and 'fair and balanced', and the Gas and Oil Party telling everyone they are the ones.

    fact is, the economy has been sunk by those very folks who continue beathing the raygunomics dead horse. time for something new and solutions. i appreciate reading everything i can find that is focused on solutions.

    the FAUX fantasy network and am radio jocks are there to beat drums which already have proven to be hollow and tone deaf.

    so if folks want to post links to folks who are proposing solutions and not shovelling more shit, post away.
  19. Kent Lufkin Remember when you could remember everything?

    Posts: 7,136
    Not sure
    Ratings: +1,224 / 0
    I agree with your first point GT, but not the last.

    I for one don't have time to read through reams of other writer's white papers. If someone feels strongly enough about the point that their favorite writer makes, then they should be able to sum it up in a sentence or three so I don't have to waste 5 or 10 minutes sifting it out. Plus, if I don't know what their take on the piece was, how can I agree or disagree with it?

    If you can't be bothered to briefly summarize, I'm not gonna bother to read it unless your summary makes it seem utterly compelling.

  20. Jeremy Floyd fly fishing my way through life

    Posts: 2,557
    Quesnel, BC
    Ratings: +318 / 0
    I admit it...

    It is my fault. I bought a Toyota and VW. Sorry guys...